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To: joebuck

You consider the obscure statement by Irenaeus “strong evidence”?

Somehow his other statement he made in the same writing where he writes about “ancient copies” of Revelation went overlooked by all the late daters.

BTW, do you have any idea how long it took back then to make even one copy? That would also make John in his 90s when he supposedly wrote it, or perhaps you think it was written by another John?

Sorry, but the late date argument is based on one obscure statement by Irenaeus that’s very weak as far as the external evidence and there’s no internal evidence to support the late date at all.

Sometimes I think the main reason people buy the late date argument and belief that the state of Israel is a sign of the “last days” is the desire to believe a rapture will occur in our lifetime. I mean who wouldn’t rather meet Christ in the air than having to take the subterranean route to meet Him. But finding truth should be our priority.


31 posted on 03/07/2008 3:16:03 PM PST by tabsternager
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To: tabsternager
"You consider the obscure statement by Irenaeus “strong evidence”?"

What makes this statement any more "obscure" than any other statement by Irenaeus or any other early Church father by the way? Irenaeus is very clear in stating John's imprisonment occured on Patmos "in my own lifetime, at the end of Domitian's reign". This is very consistent with both the internal text and with the practice at that time of using the reigns of the Roman emporers to date events. Eusebius cites this and also says there is "ample evidence" John was imprisoned during the reign of Domitian. This makes historical sense because there is no evidence that Nero, Vespasian or Titus ever banished anyone to Patmos. None. If Revelation was written early the author would have been banished there by one of these Emperors (or Caesars if you like) but there is zero evidence to support anything of the kind. The persecutions of Nero were confined almost exclusively to Rome and it's surrounding area.

The only significant mention of the island of Patmos in all of ancient writing is the fact that Domitian, during the Christian persecutions, banishish people there to be slaves. So the ojective historic evidence compells the conclusion that John wrote Revelation on the island of Patmos during the reign of Domitian, somewhere between 91-95 AD.

32 posted on 03/07/2008 3:48:50 PM PST by joebuck (Finitum non capax infinitum!)
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To: tabsternager
Sometimes I think the main reason people buy the late date argument and belief that the state of Israel is a sign of the “last days” is the desire to believe a rapture will occur in our lifetime.

No, it is because there are large portions of the Hebrew Scriptures that support a late date. Eg. the Roman destruction in 70CE and again in 135CE does not even come close to describing Deuteromony 30 as well as the supporting passages from the Prophets, including Ezekiel 36-38.

Nothing about a rapture. That is the strawman that Praeterists create.
71 posted on 03/10/2008 5:29:13 PM PDT by safisoft
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