[DoughtyOne]

D1, It's taken me a couple days of hit and miss FReeping to get through all the responses. I'm trying to organize the them to get a clear idea of their substance and then post a response.

That's okay Bob.  I was just thinking, man does this guy have a lot of errands or what?  ;-)

One thing I noticed about many and in regards to your first response, my question wasn't why people didn't support McCain, it was why they were trying to get others to do so as well. Peoples opinions on McCain have been posted at great length for some time, pro and con, and they are well known.  True...

Some people will vote for their candidate of choice and be done with it while others will feel a greater need to get others to do so as well by volunteering, talking to friends and neighbors, maybe donating. The second group is compelled by not only the support of a candidates positions but also a great desire to see that person elected.  True...

That goes both ways. Some people will be so offended by a candidate that they could never vote for them and may just stay home on election day or vote for another candidate. Then there are those who feel the need to go the extra distance to make sure that candidate doesn't get elected. True...

And that was what I didn't understand. Staying home, voting for another candidate or sending a "message" to the RNC made sense, but actively working to get O or H elected didn't. I think I have the answer now, but my question was a good one and not condescending in any way.

Let me preface what I am about to say by reminding folks of some of the knockdown verbal exchanges that took place during our nation's founding.  Despite this our Founding Fathers remained loyal to the goal of establishing a greater nation with greater good will toward their fellow man, than any other nation that prededed the United States.

Bob, I personally believe that the election of Senator John McCain to the Presidency will harm this nation severely.  Right now I would appreciate it if you would go back and read your last four paragraphs.

If you believe that what I just posted in the last sentence is true, and that I honestly meant what I said, don't you think your comments might have been a little over the top, when addressing those of us who cannot in good concience accept a man like Senator John McCain as our standard bearer?  Why should we not advocate for that belief?  Are we a lesser class of statesman than those who support McCain?  Should we be content not to express ourselves, if we truly fear what a McCain Presidency will mean to conservatism?

With regard to the idea that some who share my views on this forum might be plants, I looked at the join date of every person who sided with me.  One had joined a month ago.  Another had joined about eighteen months ago.  I even looked at the dates in election years to try to assess who I am siding with.  I tried to direct most of my extended comments to people who have been here a long time, and that had start dates that didn't look somewhat iffy.  What I came away with was the impression that those who sided with me have for the vast majority of cases, been folks who have been here for a long time, or at least four to eight years, except for the two.  Closer inspection might reveal I am off a bit, but I don't believe by much.

After I had done that, I considered what the down side would be, if they were plants and simply trying to egg something on.  And that is when it dawned on me that if I truly judge that McCain will be a death knell to conservatism, what do I care if Hillary and Obama themselves want to stop the candidacy of the likes of him?  Senator John McCain does not suddenly become absolved of his former treachery due to such a happenstance.  He does not suddenly become a man who 'gets it'.  He is still the man who can't understand why we don't want terrorists trials in open court, where methods and secrets must be revealed to obtain a guilty verdict.  He is still the guy who can't understand why it is vitally important to debrief terrorists using any method possible that aren't truly inhumane.  He's still the guy who can't understand why we don't want these terrorists to be housed on mainland soil, the focus of all sorts of antagonists of our policies concerning them.  And this is the guy that is supposed to be enlightened when it comes to military matters.  He is not the guy who is supposed to be giving terrorist supporting leftists cover.  And yet he does.

Bob, I don't think you meant those comments to be condenscending.  I hope that you understand my comments here are not directed at you as personally as they seem to be, but rather to answer the questions a great many forum members have.  Right now there seems to be a wide gap between us.  I don't think that gap is as wide as it seems, and I want those on your side to realize that we're every bit as much a concerned conservative as you.  And I personally understand that you folks are every bit as concerned a conservative as I am.

We have two paths before us headed into November.  You folks have come to the conclusion that the status quo voting for the lesser of two evils is going to get us the most yardage.  I have seen the last twenty years worth of yardage, and don't think loosing thirty yards is anything to write home about.

Whatever comes to pass, I want the ball in 2012.  I don't care if it's on the one yard line, as long as a true conservative has the ball.  When we get that ball the next time, I don't want a Congress that is on our side, and many many lost opportunities to show for it.

Thanks for your response.

[Bob J]

I'll start by doing as you asked and looking at the last four paragraphs in my original post (this is what you meant?).

"So why are you working so hard, so viscerlly, so nasty, to turn votes against McCain?"

I believe I have read most articles posted about McCain. There are some, like you, who post thought out reasonable responses. The there are those who post comments that I believe can be described as that above. I wasn't posting that comment to you but to those who it applied to. If you don't feel it describes you, than it probably doesn't.

The extension to that was people who posted to me saying the pro-vote-McCain crowd was just as nasty. I agree, some were. But I wasn't addressing them at the time. I never said the pro-vote-McCain were angels nor did I deny that there were nasty comments coming from them.

"If you truly feel as you do than go sit out November or cast your vote for your 3rd party candidate. That makes sense. What doesn't make sense is why you push for a McCain and GOP loss. It may be as simple as "misery loves company". It may be that you validate your own position by getting others to believe as you do. It may be that there are some dem propaganda plants on FR. I don't know but I sure would like to and I know others do as well."

I stand by this comment, at the time I did not understand the rationale coming from that group. Now I think I have a better grasp on it. I don't feel any better about it but at least I can put it into a framework.

Regarding the "plant" comment, I think it is possible there are people here pushing an anti-GOP agenda (nothing illegal about that but one does have toput those comments into context), but at this point I would expand that to 3rd Party crowd. I don't think it has anything to do with reg dates, some of these people could have been for a long time.

Once again, nothing illegal or immoral about that but pushing an agenda is different than honestly debating an issue, particularly when one talks about principles.