Posted on 01/26/2008 3:42:36 AM PST by Zender500
You only have a few more hours to call Jen Nagel Jen. After her ordination at 2 p.m. today, you have to start calling her the Rev. Nagel -- unless you're a member of the national board of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA), in which case you probably don't want to call her at all.
Nagel is being ordained despite being committed to a same-sex relationship. The national ELCA doesn't approve of the ordination of gay ministers. But an exemption in the bylaws was passed at the national convention in August allowing local synods to not object to such ordinations, which is what is happening -- or not happening, depending on how you interpret all of this -- with Nagel.
"I still won't be listed on the national ELCA roster" of ministers, she said. "Officially, I will not be accepted as a pastor by the ELCA, but the people of the local ELCA are accepting me."
(Excerpt) Read more at startribune.com ...
When ELCA pastors and denominational leaders start handing out dangerously anti-Biblical advice to their members, Bible-believing ELCA members really have no choice but to exit. We're not talking about superficial differences here. The ELCA is okaying behaviors (homosexual acts among them) the Bible clearly proscribes as sin. Not only that, but the Bible in several places warns specifically that those who continue impenitent in those sins "will not inherit the kindgom of heaven." It was that kind of ungodly influence and counsel that Jesus addressed when he said it would be better for someone to have a millstone tied around his neck and be cast into the sea than to cause one of "these little ones" to sin. The ELCA is treading on dangerous ground.
How can any preacher evade the life-changing implications of today’s Gospel: “From that time on, Jesus began to proclaim, ‘Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand’”?
Look at the verses in Romans regarding this issue and see if you and I have managed to get through life without violating some of the things mentioned there. Then look at the verses about judging and see who you know who has managed to get through life without being judgmental. Then, you can cast some stones. Which isn’t to say that this is right, but that we aren’t about it.
The Mainline started its slide down the slippery slope back in the 60's when they all decided they had to "be relevant" and learn to "relate to the young." They began to emulate coffee houses instead of acting like churches and guess what. Coffee houses did it better so that's where the "young" all went.
A church that seeks to "compete with the World" is a church that does not understand its true mission.
“They began to emulate coffee houses instead of acting like churches and guess what. Coffee houses did it better so that’s where the “young” all went.”
I disagree, Jesus has commanded us to go out into the world. Churches don’t have to be drab and dreary to lead people to salvation.
“A church that seeks to “compete with the World” is a church that does not understand its true mission.”
What is their true mission? It certainly isn’t to bored people to death. The true mission is to preach God’s word and lead people to salvation. Of course thats competing with the World (aka Satans playground).
Welcome to FreeRepublic.
The operative word in this discussion is impenitence. When a person trusts Jesus as his Savior, he's declaring that he's turning his life over to the lordship of Jesus and that he now wants to see things as God sees them. If God declares something to be a sin, the alive-in-Christ new creation doesn't try to evade the truth and give excuses for continuing to sin. He repents of it and asks for God's help in not succumbing to the temptation to do whatever God has declared to be sin. He may yield to the temptation again and sin, but he goes to God in repentance every time he does. He doesn't try to justify his sin by playing semantic games with the Bible. (Paul: "How can we who have died to sin still live in it?")
The problem is compounded when pastor-shepherds, who are supposed to preach the Word, start adulterating it by claiming it really doesn't say what it plainly says. Both Paul and Jesus (the latter in Matthew 7, the chapter whose first verse is the only one liberal pastors and mainline denominations seem to remember) warned believers to "beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves."
I don’t think it’s judgmental to point out sin. And the whole point of being Christian isn’t that we’re perfect non-sinners but we’re forgiven for them as we accept Christ and turn away from our sins.
Great post!
My brother’s fiancee’s ex-husband is the youth minister, president of a Christian adoption agency and overall upstanding outward Christian.
But he often makes comments like: “Who’s to say that the Christian way is the only way to heaven”?
Ummmm Christ Himself said it! Christian: follower of Christ and His teachings.
If we are to say that sin is sin, gossip is gossip (even if we are saying something POSITIVE about somebody,) then judging is judging. Judging isn’t saying something false or negative, it is making a judgment.
That doesn’t mean that I disagree with the comments on this forum. It just means that we need to be sure we aren’t playing God’s role, Who is the ultimate Judge.
The Bible (Jesus, in this case) shows that the Pharisees knew the scripture and applied it literally and exactly according to what they had been taught, but Jesus turned that interpretation on its head.
Jesus has much to say about pointing our fingers at others because even little sins, tiny sins, cause the same separation from God that the big sins do.
Which isn’t to suggest we’re not to use good judgment!
It’s clearly NOT judgmental to point out that it’s the wrong interpretation to say we shouldn’t judge the act or lifestyle of homosexuality or there’s more than one way to God other than Christianity.
You can not accept just the teachings of God that fit your lifestyle, agenda or sensibilites.
Let’s be literal here. Pointing out that something is right is judging. Pointing out that something is a wrong interpretation is judging. When the judge in a courtroom says “guilty” or “not guilty” he/she is judging.
We can’t pick and choose what we are going to be literal about. I never said that I disagreed or that I believed that there are other ways to heaven or salvation. Don’t jump to conclusions and judge my words unfairly.
I am basically saying that one must watch what messes we make before we step in them ourselves.
I find the issue to be troubling, “at best.” But I do know that even though I’m saved completely through Jesus’ action on the cross, I also remain in sin every day and have always to repent. And I know that my sins aren’t lesser sins than the so-called worst sins because each and every sin separates us from God, so in that way, I believe that none of us is better than someone in prison or the person in the initial article.
I was just trying to point out that some commentators were implying that the person was unrepentant, apparently, although we can’t read another’s heart. But when we judge and act self-righteous about it, we are also unrepentant.
Don’t jump to conclusions and judge my words unfairly.
I didn’t, I merely pointed out that there are things that God Jesus took out of our hands...the 10 commandments, idolatry, virtually any sin and the definition of such and Jesus dying for us when we repent for them.
I’m not talking about the person, but the very sin itself.
And yes, while we have no right to judge persons, we DO have a right to determine what is sinful or not. Through God’s guidance.
That was my only point.
Mr. CGG and I left the ELCA 14 years ago for the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod and couldn’t be happier.
[tpanther] And yes, while we have no right to judge persons, we DO have a right to determine what is sinful or not. Through God’s guidance.
[from the report of the ordination on the Extraordinary Lutheran Ministries website] The ordaining ministers in the service included three retired ELCA bishops – Rev. Darold Beekmann, Rev. David Brown, and Rev. Lowell Erdahl, and around one hundred clergy. During the rite of ordination and throughout the service stoles from the Shower of Stoles Project served as a backdrop. The Shower of Stoles Project is a collection of over a thousand liturgical stoles and other garments representing the lives of gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgendered religious leaders. Jen wore the red stole that was originally presented to Rev. Anita Hill at her ordination in 2000 and which has been worn by six openly gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender pastors since then.
If one is openly gay, and if the Bible describes homosexual sex as a sin, can "open gayness" be described as anything but unrepentant?
Not really, no.
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