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Mitt Romney And The Second Amendment
lonestartimes ^ | 2/25/2008

Posted on 01/25/2008 9:59:59 AM PST by JRochelle

During the debate last night, Mitt Romney was asked about his support of Brady and a ban on assault weapons.

MR. ROMNEY: I do support the Second Amendment, and I believe that this is an individual right of citizens and not a right of government. And I hope the Supreme Court reaches that same conclusion.

I also, like the president, would have signed the assault weapon ban that came to his desk. I said I would have supported that and signed a similar bill in our state. It was a bill worked out, by the way, between pro-gun lobby and anti-guy lobby individuals. Both sides of the issue came together and found a way to provide relaxation in licensing requirements and allow more people to — to have guns for their own legal purposes. And so we signed that in Massachusetts, and I said I’d — I would would support that at the federal level, just as the president said he would. It did not pass at the federal level.

I do not believe we need new legislation.

I do not support any new legislation of an assault weapon ban nature, including that against semiautomatic weapons. I instead believe that we have laws in place that, if they’re implemented and enforced, will provide the protection and the safety of the American people. But I do not support any new legislation, and I do support the right of individuals to bear arms, whether for hunting purposes or for protection purposes or any other reasons. That’s the right that people have.

I think it might be helpful to review Dave Kopel’s thoughts on Mr. Romney’s views of the Second Amendment and gun ownership as published in National Review.

Romney’s Record Similarly, this year’s presidential candidate from Massachusetts has a thin record to back up his claims of support for the Second Amendment. On his website, you can find two accomplishments:

First, in 2004 he signed a bill which reformed some aspects of the extremely severe and arbitrary gun-licensing system in Massachusetts. This would be an impressive accomplishment if that were all the bill did. But the bill also made the Massachusetts ban on “assault weapons” permanent. (The previous ban was parasitic on the federal ban, which expired in September 2004.) The bill that Romney signed was a compromise bill, approved by both sides in the Massachusetts gun-control debate and widely supported by both parties in the legislature. The NRA considered the bill to be a net gain, but it’s hardly the unalloyed, pro-rights success that Romney now claims. As governor, Romney declared his support for banning so-called “assault weapons.”

The other accomplishment noted on the website was Romney’s signing of a 2005 bill that improved some technical details for hunting with muzzle-loading guns.

Other than the 2005 proclamation, there is little evidence of executive leadership by Romney on Second Amendment rights; rather, he tended merely to accept reform bills which could pass even the Massachusetts legislature.

But Romney occasionally considered the Democratic-dominated Massachusetts legislature too soft on gun owners. In the summer of 2002, the Massachusetts house overwhelmingly passed a bill to relax the state’s lifetime ban on gun ownership for persons convicted of some misdemeanors. Faced with a bill that had passed the left-leaning House by a huge margin, Governor Romney declared his opposition, while allowing that he would back a much “more narrow proposal” (Boston Globe, July 17, 2002, page B4). (The narrower proposal was eventually included in the 2004 bill which he did sign.)

Running for re-election in 2002, he bragged, “We do have tough gun laws in Massachusetts. I support them. I won’t chip away at them. I believe they protect us and provide for our safety.” At the least, Romney generally didn’t show leadership in making Massachusetts’ terrible gun-laws even worse. For example, his 2002 anti-crime plan included no new gun control (Boston Herald, August 21, 2002).

Conservative? Hmm. Let’s continue.

Romney’s website brags about how he balanced the Massachusetts budget “without raising taxes.” That depends on what the meaning of “taxes” is. Unmentioned on the Romney website is how he dealt with a state budget gap: namely, by quadrupling the fee for a Firearms Identification card (FID) to $100. Without a FID in Massachusetts, you are a felon if you possess a single bullet, even if you don’t own a gun. The FID card is required even to possess defensive pepper spray. Thus, an impoverished woman who wanted to buy a $15 can of pepper spray was forced by Romney to spend $100 for the privilege of defending her own life (North Shore Sunday News, August 8, 2003).

This year, Romney has been portraying himself as a staunch Second Amendment advocate. But when he was interviewed by Glenn and Helen Reynolds, he displayed little understanding of the Second Amendment and had difficulty articulation anything more than platitudes and slogans.

Conservative? Paying $100 to carry pepper spray? Let’s continue.

Unreliable Friends of Convenience Mitt Romney’s attitudes on guns — like his double flip-flop on abortion — appear to have more to do with political expediency than with conviction. While an expedient and cynical “friend” like Mitt Romney would probably be better for gun owners than would a sincere and fierce enemy like Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama, it is still worth wondering what President Romney would do if his political calculus changed yet again.

George H. W. Bush was another gun-rights friend of convenience, who (like Romney) bought himself a lifetime NRA membership shortly before running for president. And when circumstances made it convenient for Bush to become a gun-control advocate instead of a Second Amendment defender (only a few weeks after he took the oath of office and swore to defend the Constitution), Bush switched sides, and spent the remainder of his administration promoting restrictions on the Second Amendment.


TOPICS: Front Page News; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: 2008; 2ndamendment; banglist; elections; flipflop; phony; rino; rkba; romney; romneytruthfile; secondamendment
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To: fortheDeclaration
He knows it is an individual right.

And yet he is able to hold the two contradictory concepts of the 2A as an individual right, and support for an "assault weapon" ban in his mind at the same time. Does this mean that he has a trans-dimensional brain the size of a planet, or simply that he doesn't really understand what the Second Amendment says or what it means?

281 posted on 01/26/2008 5:29:44 AM PST by mvpel (Michael Pelletier)
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To: mbraynard
Well they ARE 22 *L*

Would it make any difference if it was a box of .22 Shorts?

282 posted on 01/26/2008 5:41:38 AM PST by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: mvpel
And yet he is able to hold the two contradictory concepts of the 2A as an individual right, and support for an "assault weapon" ban in his mind at the same time. Does this mean that he has a trans-dimensional brain the size of a planet, or simply that he doesn't really understand what the Second Amendment says or what it means?

You see it all the time, especially inside the beltway. Individual "rights" only extend as far as the legislators and bureaucrats neglect to regulate them out of existence.

283 posted on 01/26/2008 5:45:34 AM PST by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: mvpel
[He knows it is an individual right.]

And yet he is able to hold the two contradictory concepts of the 2A as an individual right, and support for an "assault weapon" ban in his mind at the same time. Does this mean that he has a trans-dimensional brain the size of a planet, or simply that he doesn't really understand what the Second Amendment says or what it means?

Finally, while NRA strongly disagrees with many of the arguments in DOJ’s brief, there are a few areas of agreement. Notably, DOJ agrees that the Second Amendment protects an individual right, and that it applies to the District, even strongly hinting that under the lower “heightened scrutiny” it supports that D.C laws could be unconstitutional. This was not the position of the previous administration. In fact, Clinton administration Attorney General Janet Reno and Solicitor General Seth Waxman, along with other DOJ officials from the Clinton administration have filed their own brief in support of the District, arguing that there is no individual right at all to possess guns outside of government service. http://www.nraila.org/Legislation/Federal/Read.aspx?id=3388

You either going to get a President who holds that the 2nd is a individual right or one who believes that individuals do not have right to own weapons at all.

Now, Romney is far better with his 'B' ranking then any Democrat.

If you want to vote for another Republican in the primary who is stronger on gun rights, as I am doing, that is fine, but once the general election comes, the Democrat is not an option for supporters of the 2nd Amendment.

284 posted on 01/26/2008 6:14:02 AM PST by fortheDeclaration (The power under the Constitution will always be in the people- George Washington)
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To: LiveFree99

I’m with you. I voted for Fred. I will vote for Mitt in the General and hope we can mold him, while sending contributions only to GOA, NRA, DU, and the like.


285 posted on 01/26/2008 6:26:32 AM PST by westmichman ( God said: "They cry 'peace! peace!' but there is no peace. Jeremiah 6:14)
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To: Smokin' Joe
[The AWB died a natural death. It was not rolled back, but never would have existed had it not been for the sunset clause.]

THat it was not renewed shows how desperate you are to tout a victory.

Not desperate, but happy.

I am willing to call a victory a victory, espically since there was such intense pressure by the Left to keep it on the books.

Had the Democrats been in control of Congress it would have been.

[ The right to own weapons is being discussed as a personal right for the first time in decades. ]

Yep, before it was taken for granted.

Not by the Democrats it isn't.

Note in Miller the scotus did not rule the collective right, but tha the weapon involved was not a militia weapon. Of course, a little defense (Miller was dead), might have pointed out that a short barrelled shotgun has numerous applications as a military weapon, thus the premise of the ruling was in error: the court was misinformed.

[ But for some reason Conservatives have this penchant for predicting the imminent end of the freedom, so lets just forget our responsibilities to vote. ] Yes! Because complacency guarantees the end of freedom. If every statute is not studied in its worst light, its greatest potential abuse, then it will eventually be used that way. Best to nip it in the bud.

Best to stop it before it gets started.

Were any new gun control laws enacted when the GOP controlled congress?

Keep in mind, too, that we are the ones who have had our core issues nibbled away at by the herd who would mouth nonsense about waiting until next time, about lesser evils, and how you get 80%, so what if you don't get the other 20? No loss of freedom is tolerable to conservatives, it is those who tout compromise who are selling our liberty piecemeal for convenience.

No, it those who are advocating 'dropping out' that is ensuring that the next generation will have less freedom then ours.

[ One thing that conservatives could learn from liberals is their eternal optimism and determination. ]

First, we are about as determined as it gets. We are still here, even though the purveyors of Republican-ism have crapped on us time and time again. We have not given up.

Really?

The Left has been working to socialize this nation for decades and don't give up because they haven't obtained their goal.

Second, I have a positive attitude. I am positive, that given any advantage, pecuniary or otherwise, my government will continue to amass to itself power at the expense of my liberty. That is human nature, and to get starry-eyed and start doing the happy-feely kumbaya bit might work for the socialists' drones, but they are oblivious to the freedom they are losing in the process.

No, they are confident that they will win in the end and thus, they continue moving forward, while Conservatives retreat and make no attempts to actually roll back socialism.

[ No matter how often they are defeated, they keep coming because they have faith in their cause. ]

As do we. Faith in our cause, in God, in the ultimate desire of people to live secure, productive, and happy lives--and to pass those freedoms, that security, and the fruits of our labors on to our progeny.

No, you are not 'coming back' you are advocating giving up.

[ The biggest difference is in how we desire to attain that goal. ]

I have a mother and a father, God Bless them, and I learned the concepts of personal responsibility at their knee. I do not need the State to act as a surrogate, not then, and certainly not now, when I am a great-grandfather.

And who does?

[ Would that conservatives had that same kind of faith in theirs, instead of 'I am going to hunker down with my rifle and ammo and wait for the United States to collapse'. ]

Perhaps a few do have that idea in mind, but most of us would rather prevent that collapse. If you or anyone else wants an idea what happens to a modern city in a year of warfare, look at Sarajevo, the jewell of the Balkans, and site of the Winter olympics (I forget the year). No one wants that for America except our enemies. No one wants to live like East Germany in the '60s either.

Well, the way to prevent that politically is at the voting booth.

But, in extremis, the rifle and ammo are there--and will continue to be, regardless.

If it comes to that, then we have failed when we had a chance to change things peacefully.

286 posted on 01/26/2008 6:39:01 AM PST by fortheDeclaration (The power under the Constitution will always be in the people- George Washington)
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To: redgirlinabluestate

And Mitt Romney will be a fine president as well, and I doubt he’ll be signing any such bill.


I hope your vote helps him get elected. Mine won’t.

And since he would have signed the assault weapons ban, I’m sure he would gladly sign a machine gun ban.


287 posted on 01/26/2008 7:52:30 AM PST by Atlas Sneezed ("We do have tough gun laws in Massachusetts; I support them, I won't chip away at them" -Mitt Romney)
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To: fortheDeclaration

You’re right - I already cast my vote for the best 2A supporter in the primary, but at least Romney is potentially educable on the issue. You can cure ignorance, such as ignorance of the similarities between “assault weapons” and ordinary semi-automatic hunting rifles.


288 posted on 01/26/2008 7:56:08 AM PST by mvpel (Michael Pelletier)
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To: JRochelle

Even if Romney isn’t the staunchest 2nd Amendment advocate out there, he is still no worse than McCain on the issue, indeed he is better, and above all, McCain’s pro-amnesty position I believe must be the deciding deal-breaking factor.
If McCain is the GOP nominee, I will vote for him.
Huckabee is the only one I would not vote for, though it doesn’t look like there is any threat of that.

However, Romney is the best option given the poverty of choices.
Don’t blame the candidates who are running, though.
Blame the ones who are not.
And blame all the idiots who didn’t vote for Fred Thompson.


289 posted on 01/26/2008 7:58:21 AM PST by counterpunch (Mike Huckabee — The Religious Wrong)
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To: JRochelle

McCain wants more amnesty for illegals, Julie-Annie wants to give them welfare and Hickabee wants to give both.

Romney is the last option left. The rest can go to hell...

Standing up on the national stage next to a short, fat old hag, the last thing the Republicans need is a weak, frail old man.

Romney is a vibrant, healthy man and like it or not, in our image driven society, it is solely that image that will elect him.


290 posted on 01/26/2008 8:03:48 AM PST by Sir Francis Dashwood (LET'S ROLL!)
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To: fortheDeclaration
Mitt said enough for me to vote for him.

I respect your view, forthDeclaration, but I can't make that leap yet. I'm not saying if Mitt is the nominee that I won't hold my nose and pull the lever, but I am NOT convinced that he even understands the visceral nature of this one issue. If he can convince me that he has truly come to understand the way we 2nd Amendment absolutists believe, and will promise us in no uncertain terms that he will never sign any legislation, or issue any executive order infringing our 2nd Amendment rights in the very least, then, and only then will he EARN my support. And let me be clear. That goes not only for Mitt, but for the entire "gang".
291 posted on 01/26/2008 8:50:38 AM PST by rickomatic
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To: Smokin' Joe
"might have pointed out that a short barrelled shotgun has numerous applications as a military weapon"

"A" short barreled shotgun, maybe. But not Miller's.

"thus the premise of the ruling was in error: the court was misinformed."

The court was not misinformed. The court was not informed, period. They remanded the case for further clarification.

292 posted on 01/26/2008 9:13:11 AM PST by robertpaulsen
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To: fortheDeclaration
Would that conservatives had that same kind of faith in theirs, instead of 'I am going to hunker down with my rifle and ammo and wait for the United States to collapse'.

I think you just hit the nail on the head there, forthDeclaration. Perhaps without really knowing it too. Faith, and Trust are not gifts handed out cavalierly. They must be EARNED. Our top tier candidates have yet to earn that. Mitt, especially in regards to the 2nd Amendment. Words ring hollow when thrown out in pre election canned responses. I suggest again, that Mitt get himself educated on the 2nd Amendment from OUR perspective, then perhaps issue a white paper outlining his pledges to us. He needs to earn our trust. We will not give it freely. Nor will we give it to any of the other candidates.

I believe that Mitt may be on the cusp of a surge. If he truly wants the nomination, he needs to earn the "gun lobby". The sale has not been inked yet.
293 posted on 01/26/2008 9:16:29 AM PST by rickomatic
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To: Saundra Duffy
It’s me again. Listen up. Aren’t you embarrassed to be in bed with the liberal media - all of you snuggled under the covers hating and bashing Mitt Romney? You are acting like one of those “useful idiots” that Hillary loves to exploit.

Sandra,
I always enjoy your posts. But, please come out from behind your blinders. This entire thread has been laced with well thought out and argued ISSUE points. This has NOT been a bashing thread. I'll be the first to admit that I've jumped in on the religion debates concerning Mitt, but this thread is about ISSUES. Believe it or not, Mitt has the chance to win over a large percentage of those of us who differ fundamentally with him on religeous doctrine. We will continue to argue those points on a higher plane of spriritual importance. But we are now talking about the temporal plane. Mitt is NOT strong on the 2nd Amendment and a few other points. If he wants our support, he must convince us on that level. I will never agree with his spiritual beliefs. But, he CAN win my political support if he can convince me of his sincerity. I will use an old tired line I've thrown around on here lately and say...."He hasn't made the sale yet."
294 posted on 01/26/2008 9:24:56 AM PST by rickomatic
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To: patriciaruth
It isn't up to just Ann.

Of course I understand that. But since Ann has more or less endorsed Mitt, I want to see how she responds to him stating that he would sign an assault weapons ban.

Conservatives have come to a sad crossroads where we're all having to choose between the lesser of evils.

295 posted on 01/26/2008 9:55:36 AM PST by cowboyway ("No damn man kills me and lives." -- Nathan Bedford Forrest)
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To: JRochelle

BTTT!


296 posted on 01/26/2008 10:07:04 AM PST by Inyo-Mono (If you don't want people to get your goat, don't tell them where it's tied.)
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To: rickomatic
To Mittwits, it is hate and bigotry if you criticize him.

You see, in their eyes, he is perfect. He could never lie.

He is a temple-worthy Mormon, that means more than anything.

297 posted on 01/26/2008 10:28:18 AM PST by JRochelle (John Thune in 2012.)
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To: N3WBI3

Try buying a house for less than $800K in the SF Bay Area, and see if you want to live there. My guess is that it’ll turn into a rental unit before you memorize your new address and tele number.

Take your socialist class envy somewhere that it fits in; here ain’t it.


298 posted on 01/26/2008 10:53:50 AM PST by editor-surveyor (Turning the general election into a second Democrat primary is not a winning strategy.)
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To: Tigen
No one is admitted into a Mormon temple without a “Temple Recommend.”

There is a big difference between a government "licensing" a right, and private organization, religious or not, controlling access to its facilities.

Many high tech companies control access to their facilities in order to protect their trade secrets. I suppose you have a problem with that too. (My wife did some consulting for TI, they searched her purse coming and going, something other parts of TI, who did defense work, did not do. In fact the badge that all TI employees wore, which would get you into the facilities of the defense group, (but not into "certain areas") would not get you into those the areas used by the part that made commerical products sold at retail).

299 posted on 01/26/2008 10:55:16 AM PST by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: JRochelle

The most disturbing part of all this is that we must have a lobby group like the NRA in DC to defend our Constitutional 2A rights. None of this would be necessary if the Congress and the President would honor our Constitution.

The most disgusting part about it all is how some sheeple
brag about these brokered deals involving what is our God given as well as Constitutional right to protect and defend ourselves.

Bottom line, our God given and Constitutional rights to protect and defend our lives, our families, and our property are non-negotiable. The fact they have been brokered away with restrictive measures should be a wake up call for all.

I consider any politician complicit in these brokered deals an enemy of freedom.


300 posted on 01/26/2008 10:57:45 AM PST by takenoprisoner
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