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To: Mad Dawg

I think that’s a very thoughtful reply, and I agree with much of it. I do, however, think you’re painting some false dichotomies. For instance, just because you enjoy what I’ve been calling institutional mediation (sacraments and so on) doesn’t mean they’re not required according to Catholic rules. You can love the mediation; you can think it’s a wonderful help in reaching Jesus, in whatever capacity. But the mediation is still there.

I agree that the Bible is Protestants main mode of mediation. I didn’t intend to argue that we have NO mediation whatsoever. I’m saying Catholics, while also using Scripture, have built up a byzantine collection of other forms of mediation — the Pope, the bishops, the bureaucracy; the rules about confirmation and confession and so on; even the ultra-scripted liturgy, to some extent (though that’s less so).

Also, I do realize that the Catholic church recognizes ways to be saved outside of Catholicism. But there are still rules for Catholics. People might be saved despite ignoring them, but the rules are still part of the system — or paradigm :) Moreover, Catholics haven’t abandoned the notion that they constitute the one true church, so obviously there’s a hierarchy where some Christians are more equal than others.


417 posted on 12/19/2007 11:25:53 AM PST by BackInBlack ("The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice.")
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To: BackInBlack
I wasn't denying the the idea of required mediation-y this or that. It was more saying that, well one person could say, "He inflicted an ice-cream cone on me!" and another would say," I SORT of see what you mean, I guess ..."

The one true Church stuff doesn't mean that some individuals are more equal than others any more than saying that the best way to deal with pneumonia is this or that anti-biotic means that people who got recovered fromppneumponia before anti-biotics were less equal than I. I'm just grateful for the anti-biotics,and wish everybody had the access to them that I did when I had pneumonia.

I guess the matter of scripted liturgy is another issue. I personally have ALWAYS, even before I was a Catholic, preferred scripted worship to un-scripted. As an Episcopal priest I wanted very much to avoid inflicting my own notions on the people entursted to my care. As a lay Catholic, I resent the heck out of the priests who think their own individual notions are so much better than those of the Church that they re-write the prayers and change the ceremonial to suit themselves.

I'm getting the idea that ecclesiology (and sacraments) is/are where the big difference between us is. IMHO the Church, from the Qahal Adonai up to the ecclesia, is a BIG notion. I'd venture to say that the part of I Cor where Paul is most expansive about the Holy Spirit is where he is also most discursive about the corporate church. And I think it is good askesis to gaze upon Old Widow Busybody and to remember that she is as much a part of the Body as wonderful I am.

I suppose if I ever get some free-time it would be good to do a word study on ecclesia in the NT. And this is because certainly the Gospel has a very strong element of the individual's relationship with God. So the dicing and slicing and whatnot will be demanding and interesting.

420 posted on 12/19/2007 12:15:02 PM PST by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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