Posted on 11/27/2007 6:15:36 PM PST by Ernest_at_the_Beach
PASADENA, TEXAS -- When he saw two men pry into his neighbor's house with a crowbar one afternoon earlier this month, Joe Horn did what many people would do: He called 911.
But when police had not shown up by the time the suspects were about to leave, the 61-year-old retiree did something most people probably would not: He stepped outside with his 12-gauge shotgun and killed them.
"I'm not going to let them get away with this," Horn told the 911 dispatcher, who responded: "Property's not worth killing someone over."
Seconds later, the sound of a gun being loaded could be heard on the 911 tape, followed by a warning -- "Move [and] you're dead" -- and then three bursts of gunfire. Miguel DeJesus, 38, and Diego Ortiz, 30, both of whom had small-time criminal histories, died of their wounds.
The six-minute recording of Horn's anger, frustration and eagerness to take the law into his own hands has made him the focus of a national controversy. Critics condemn him as a vigilante bent on meting out murderous justice. Admirers praise him as a courageous hero whom any law abider would love to have next door.
"Why is he still a free man?" Linda E. Edwards wrote in a letter to the Houston Chronicle.
"Joe Horn gets a Texas 'attaboy' from me," countered John E. Meagher in the next letter. "Justice was served, law or not."
As the debate rages on talk radio and cable-TV news shows, Horn remains free.
(Excerpt) Read more at latimes.com ...
Actually, most Americans are very reluctant to employ deadly force in such circumstances; there are hundreds of thousands to millions - depending on how you count - of incidents yearly where people report the use of use a firearm to prevent a crime, but only a few hundred justifiable homicides… most people will shoot to kill only as a last resort.
And IMO, that’s a healthy thing; a culture where large numbers of people a truly feel they are justified in killing someone for committing a property crime – a opposed to just fantasying about how good it would feel to do it when they walk out in the morning and find the driver’s side window in shards on the ground - is a culture in real trouble.
This is something most people understand quite well when they see members of other cultures in homicidal rages over fetishes about whether you should wear a beard or cover you hair, or drive a car if you are female, or charge interest on a loan – that it’s just nuts to kill people over the righteousness of your appearance, or the sacred nature of human sexuality, or the blasphemous nature of money-lending for interest.
It’s just that some of the same people see it as perfectly rational to shoot someone if they are trying to steal a burger off your backyard grill, because that’s not a fetish, that’s about the sacred nature of Property, so it’s perfectly rational and even righteous to kill someone in defense of the principle, no matter how small the crime.
If someone tresspasses to rob you of your property, then you must consider your life at risk. It is a terrible thing...not sanctioned in the sense that it is gleaful or good...but sanctioned in the sense that it is a horrible necessity to defend your life.
Texas law allows people to use deadly force to protect their own property to stop arson, burglary, robbery, theft or criminal mischief at night, precisely because when criminals are committing these crimes, they must be deemed a mortal threat to your person.
Someone will be angry with me, if I do not leave this forum for tonight. Carry on the Good Fight, even if a shot or twelve is necessary, my Fellow Americans (with Liberty and Justice for All) Dear Fellow FReepers.
Always good to leave the doors locked when you aren't at home.
Anyway, this guy called just after 2 PM. Highschools throughout that part of Houston and its suburbs let out at 2 PM. No doubt a fair percentage of the active police complement were out directing traffic related to that daily event.
Still, the guy only waited 6 minutes before shooting these guys.
Interesting that the cops have not yet said that any crime at all was commited. This story is not over.
Please give us an internet reference to a this story that tells about a “crowbar”.
In other words, only property had been stolen. She didn’t see why nonviolent criminals should have such long prison sentences... if any.
The band wagon was proceeding just fine until it was pointed out that many of these burglars were actually rapists.
In fact, if I recall correctly, a famous penologist who had been the warden of Sing Sing prison for many years testified in Austin that he had never met a man convicted of burglary who was not also a rapist if given an opportunity. It turned out that in many cases if women were in a home that was being burglarized they were raped.
Many of the allegedly "nonviolent" burglars had been given extremely long prison sentences to keep these women from having to go to court and testify in public about what had been done to them.
If somebody is breaking into a home in broad daylight, he, and whatever scumbag friends he has brought along, has earned the right to be killed on the spot. Don't tell me "it was only property."
Good shooting Mr Horn. As a taxpayer in the Great State of Texas, I appreciate your saving us the expense of a trial. I'm just sorry we can't check the dirt bags' wallets to see if they have enough of their own money to buy you a new box of shotgun shells to replace those you used.
There’s a lesson to be learned here: “if you’re not robbing someone’s house, the odds of you getting killed go down considerably”.
They knocked down the fence and drove into the backyard under cover of a privacy fence the broke into the home, loaded up the truck/car and away they went. bigtime forced entry
You made good points in your post, but the above comment really got my attention. What were the circumstances that required you to break into someone's home?
The very same folks who say Mr. Horn is right to shoot these guys who went into the house next door (after he heard glass break) also told me that I and my friend should have called the cops to assist us in getting into his house.
I'd suggest they are inconsistent.
Rather, I now think we should have gone armed to my friend's home and if anyone even so much as looked at us more than a second, shot them down like dogs in the street since it would be quite obvious they wanted to fire on us without provocation.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7jqLie6-Y0
I think Mr. Horn can be heard describing the criminals as using a crowbar. Check around 2:09 into the audio.
And go after any DA or prosecutor that goes after the shooter. End their career, and make an example of them.
Enough of this crime BS.
Where I come from that is considered more than enough fair warning.
Sounds to me like someone moved.
Frankly, I hate the idea of vigilante force. However, as time goes on and respect for individual rights are overcome by criminal intent..the police and sheriffs will not be able to keep up with demand. So should we roll over and give in to criminal activity?
These individuals could just have well killed or raped in the process of their “little” crime. Maybe not at that house, but the next.
If this gentleman would like to relocate..I would welcome him in my neighborhood.
And..yes..I’m from Texas. :)
With Mr. Horn next door the last thing you want to have happen is to forget your house keys and get locked out.
Well said Brucifer.
The dispatcher is clueless. So is the Drive By Media that is covering
OK, Mr or Madam Dispatcher and Drive By “Journalists”. Answer this:
1) What if the neighbors would been the house being beat up by another individual(s)?
2) What if the neighbors would have elderly unable to physically defend themselves.
3) Worse that that, what if the neighbors had female children and the parents left them at home alone?
The old adage, shoot first and ask questions is very applicable. I bet you anything these thieves had criminal records and spent time in jail.
About three weeks ago, we had some kids ( I think) pull a prank on us about 9:30 PM on a school night. They came to our front door and pounded as if they were about to knock it down. The worst came to my mind as I jumped away from the kitchen sink (was washing a dish) and I ran to my bedroom and got my Piece out and called 911. I didn’t know if someone was trying to commit a home invasion or it was a school intitation prank which we assume it was because some of our neighbors said on other nights they had their doorbells rang really late or a simple knock on the door and when they got the door, no one was there.
Anyway, I told the police officer that if they catch these kids in action one day doing this, they might want to tell them that Texas law now protects the homeowner and what they did in the case of my door, would be an action were the law would protect me.
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