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The uninvited guest: Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise,(military chiefs red-faced)
The Daily Mail (UK) ^ | 10th November 2007 | MATTHEW HICKLEY

Posted on 11/09/2007 4:55:08 PM PST by fanfan

When the U.S. Navy deploys a battle fleet on exercises, it takes the security of its aircraft carriers very seriously indeed.

At least a dozen warships provide a physical guard while the technical wizardry of the world's only military superpower offers an invisible shield to detect and deter any intruders.

That is the theory. Or, rather, was the theory.

American military chiefs have been left dumbstruck by an undetected Chinese submarine popping up at the heart of a recent Pacific exercise and close to the vast U.S.S. Kitty Hawk - a 1,000ft supercarrier with 4,500 personnel on board.

By the time it surfaced the 160ft Song Class diesel-electric attack submarine is understood to have sailed within viable range for launching torpedoes or missiles at the carrier.

According to senior Nato officials the incident caused consternation in the U.S. Navy.

The Americans had no idea China's fast-growing submarine fleet had reached such a level of sophistication, or that it posed such a threat.

One Nato figure said the effect was "as big a shock as the Russians launching Sputnik" - a reference to the Soviet Union's first orbiting satellite in 1957 which marked the start of the space age.

The incident, which took place in the ocean between southern Japan and Taiwan, is a major embarrassment for the Pentagon.

The lone Chinese vessel slipped past at least a dozen other American warships which were supposed to protect the carrier from hostile aircraft or submarines.

And the rest of the costly defensive screen, which usually includes at least two U.S. submarines, was also apparently unable to detect it.

According to the Nato source, the encounter has forced a serious re-think of American and Nato naval strategy as commanders reconsider the level of threat from potentially hostile Chinese submarines.

It also led to tense diplomatic exchanges, with shaken American diplomats demanding to know why the submarine was "shadowing" the U.S. fleet while Beijing pleaded ignorance and dismissed the affair as coincidence.

Analysts believe Beijing was sending a message to America and the West demonstrating its rapidly-growing military capability to threaten foreign powers which try to interfere in its "backyard".

The People's Liberation Army Navy's submarine fleet includes at least two nuclear-missile launching vessels.

Its 13 Song Class submarines are extremely quiet and difficult to detect when running on electric motors.

Commodore Stephen Saunders, editor of Jane's Fighting Ships, and a former Royal Navy anti-submarine specialist, said the U.S. had paid relatively little attention to this form of warfare since the end of the Cold War.

He said: "It was certainly a wake-up call for the Americans.

"It would tie in with what we see the Chinese trying to do, which appears to be to deter the Americans from interfering or operating in their backyard, particularly in relation to Taiwan."

In January China carried a successful missile test, shooting down a satellite in orbit for the first time.


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: chinesemilitary; chinesenavy; navair; submarine; usn; usskittyhawk
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To: JSteff

Good point JSteff. That’s all true. Thanks.


101 posted on 11/10/2007 12:01:42 AM PST by DoughtyOne (Mrs Crinton have Pay Feava. There she go now. "Ah Hsu Ahhh Hsu Ah Hsu!" Crintons worth every penny.)
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To: Squantos

Is that code for “you dumbell”? LOL


102 posted on 11/10/2007 12:11:54 AM PST by DoughtyOne (Mrs Crinton have Pay Feava. There she go now. "Ah Hsu Ahhh Hsu Ah Hsu!" Crintons worth every penny.)
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To: no-to-illegals
looks as though the clintons or some other traitor(s) has / have sold off more than missle technology, maybe....?

Rememgber the fivr-axis milling machines used by Grumman to mill the airframes for the A-6 and EA-6B from a solid block of aluminum that Clinton allowed to be sold to China over the objections by the Pentagon? They weren't supposed to be used for militay purposes. Yeah, Right?

103 posted on 11/10/2007 12:42:39 AM PST by SeaHawkFan
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To: fanfan

I always have a strong feeling the Bush administration (or Department of State alone) is trying to avoid another cold war, and is keeping a blind eye on China. It’s time to declare a new cold war, and close the market to China. Our money is feeding the Chinese PLA. We are feeding our enemy, feeding our enemy that could develop more devastating weapons. I hope the new Cold War is officially declared.


104 posted on 11/10/2007 2:19:22 AM PST by Wiz
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To: Jeff Head

ping


105 posted on 11/10/2007 2:19:58 AM PST by Wiz
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To: fanfan

For this POS Chinese diesel sub-—>>

Sub = RPG

RPGs and anti tank missiles are cheap ways to kill armor

Chi quiet diesel Sub = very low cost way of inflicting great damage on our lumbering warships

Citibank and others have been forced to write down their bullshit mortgage portfolios. My unhappy guess-timate is our huge aircraft carrier groups are also headed to a write down


106 posted on 11/10/2007 2:29:33 AM PST by dennisw (Islam - "a transnational association of dangerous lunatics")
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To: PLMerite
So he managed to get shot down sitting on the carrier deck? Not a good omen for him.

Not to mention what that says about the Phantom pilot who shot down a friendly aircraft while parked on the flight deck.

107 posted on 11/10/2007 3:33:08 AM PST by Non-Sequitur (Save Fredericksburg. Support CVBT.)
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To: Tallguy
The Chinese consider themselves to be in competition with us -- at War if you will. It's not a shooting war, but a War just the same. There's value in putting it in the US Navy's head that they can't safely push a carrier battlegroup into Taiwanese waters should a real shooting war start.

There is no value is advertising to your opponent that you are capable of sneaking into the middle of your task group undetected. That would be like the Japanese moving their fleet to within 200 miles of Pearl Harbor and then sending a radio message announcing that they're here. If the Chinese are certain that someday they'll be in a shooting war with us over Taiwan then it makes more sense for them to practice taking out the carriers and remaining quiet about their success or failures.

108 posted on 11/10/2007 3:36:01 AM PST by Non-Sequitur (Save Fredericksburg. Support CVBT.)
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To: fanfan

Paid for with lead-covered toys, contaminated food and drugs and cheap junk sold in America, thanks to globalization and the international corporations.

“Capitalism contains within itself the sseds of its own destruction” Lenin (?)


109 posted on 11/10/2007 4:03:06 AM PST by ZULU (Non nobis, non nobis Domine, sed nomini tuo da gloriam. God, guts and guns made America great.)
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To: fanfan

“It may be last years story, regurgitated.”

It certainly looks like one I read a few months back.


110 posted on 11/10/2007 4:08:06 AM PST by toddlintown (Five bullets and Lennon goes down. Yet not one hit Yoko. Discuss.)
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To: Travis McGee

Not being a Navy guy, I dont know sea tactics. It seems like a diesel submarine must make some noise that can be detected. Let’s hope in the lessons learned from this, we actually learn a lesson.


111 posted on 11/10/2007 4:52:42 AM PST by Bulldawg Fan (Victory is the last thing Murtha and his fellow Defeatists want.)
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To: Non-Sequitur
Wasn’t it a rocket from John McCain’s jet that started the “Forest Fire??

No. It was a missile from another plane that hit his.

A Zuni rocket fired from across the deck. IIRC, it hit one of McCain's external tanks. (I'm not sure if the A4 had wing tanks or a centerline external tank.) The rocket didn't explode but it did get the fire started.

Wikipedia has a good writeup on the incident here:

Wiki article (one-third way down)

112 posted on 11/10/2007 5:27:52 AM PST by Bob
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To: reed13k

The dirty little secret is that in a CVBG, BX (the ASW OTC) usually falls to the DESRON commander, who in turn has not a clue how to effectively use a submarine. We’re usually given stovepipes in a out of the way patch of water and sent on wild goose chases.


113 posted on 11/10/2007 6:16:52 AM PST by Doohickey (Giuliani: Brokeback Republican)
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To: Bulldawg Fan

A submerged diesel/electric boat runs 100% on batteries, and there is nothing quieter. The diesels are only used to charge batteries, while at snorkel depth, once every day or two depending on the sub model, battery output etc.


114 posted on 11/10/2007 6:19:52 AM PST by Travis McGee (---www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com---)
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To: Doohickey; Travis McGee; magslinger; Squantos
The Burke's are pretty good at ASW...and we have fifty of those vessels. Every CSG also has at least one, and in many cases two, ADCAP LA boats with it...we have fifty of those as well.

Do not get me wrong. It's a numbers game and we should have kept the Spruance class in particular. They were excellent ASW platforms, and with the VLS tubes had also developed into very strong multi-role destroyers...they were however weak on AAW. Still, most had a good 15-20 years service life left and instead of at least using them to replace the older vessels in the reserve fleet...the bulk of them we have sunk in live fire exercises.

Of even more concern is the retirement from ASW duties and carrier service of the S-3 Vikings. They were designed specifically for ASW duty, and had long legs (range) for that duty. There is absolutely nothing in service to replace them. All airborne ASW duties for the CSG now are performed by the helos...which, while good, have very short legs. It is true that we use the P-3 Orions as well, but they have to fly from shore and are only of limited use.

An ASW version of the Osprey would help...but the Vikings, or its replacement, were optimized and designed specifically for that purpose.

Having said all of that...my own inside sources tell me Trav that we pretty much rooted this guy out and forced him to the surface. Though we have reitred significant assetts, and in the world today, particularly with China going hells bells in naval buildup, we should have maintained the vast numerical and qualitative advantage that we had.

Just the same, with the Burkes and the helos and the LA Class subs performing ASW duties, we are far better at the ASW job than anyone else in the world.

115 posted on 11/10/2007 7:07:07 AM PST by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free...never has been, never will be. (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: Wiz

See my earlier posts, and in particular, post number 115.


116 posted on 11/10/2007 7:08:02 AM PST by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free...never has been, never will be. (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: fanfan

Thanks John Walker, Bill Clinton, and all the other pieces of crap in this country.


117 posted on 11/10/2007 7:11:09 AM PST by bmwcyle (BOMB, BOMB, BOMB,.......BOMB, BOMB IRAN)
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To: Jeff Head
I disagree, to an extent. It's taken 29 hulls to get to flight IIA, which are the first of the class to have capability for embarked helos. We've got four hulls with capability on par with the Spruance and Kidd classes.
118 posted on 11/10/2007 7:22:07 AM PST by Doohickey (Giuliani: Brokeback Republican)
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To: Non-Sequitur
There is no value is advertising to your opponent that you are capable of sneaking into the middle of your task group undetected. That would be like the Japanese moving their fleet to within 200 miles of Pearl Harbor and then sending a radio message announcing that they're here. If the Chinese are certain that someday they'll be in a shooting war with us over Taiwan then it makes more sense for them to practice taking out the carriers and remaining quiet about their success or failures.

You're thinking like a westerner, and with all due respect, your Pearl Harbor analogy is off. The IJN was built on the theories of Alfred Thayer Mahan and the ideals of Nelson. It was a main battlefleet modeled on the Royal Navy & designed to confront its opponents.

The Chinese are operating on eastern principles. It's all about misdirection. Sun Tzu: appear strong when you are weak & vise versa.

As to the incident itself. I'm not really all that impressed. It was restricted waters. A sub of that type popping up is akin to running over a mine. Plus, we won't really know if a Los Angeles had it all along, because WE don't advertize our capabilities.

119 posted on 11/10/2007 7:29:34 AM PST by Tallguy (Climate is what you plan for, weather is what you get.)
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To: Bob

Having seen a lot of A4 Skyhawks as a kid (grew up near Willow Grove NAS), I’d say the most common configuration was a centerline fuel tank.


120 posted on 11/10/2007 7:33:20 AM PST by Tallguy (Climate is what you plan for, weather is what you get.)
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