Posted on 11/04/2007 4:58:54 AM PST by shrinkermd
Evangelicals are adamant, but religion really has nothing to say about the issue
What makes opposition to abortion the issue it is for each of the GOP presidential candidates is the fact that it is the ultimate "wedge issue" -- it is nonnegotiable. The right-to-life people hold that it is as strong a point of religion as any can be. It is religious because the Sixth Commandment (or the Fifth by Catholic count) says, "Thou shalt not kill." For evangelical Christians, in general, abortion is murder. That is why what others think, what polls say, what looks practical does not matter for them. One must oppose murder, however much rancor or controversy may ensue.
But is abortion murder? Most people think not. Evangelicals may argue that most people in Germany thought it was all right to kill Jews. But the parallel is not valid. Killing Jews was killing persons. It is not demonstrable that killing fetuses is killing persons. Not even evangelicals act as if it were. If so, a woman seeking an abortion would be the most culpable person. She is killing her own child. But the evangelical community does not call for her execution.
About 10% of evangelicals, according to polls, allow for abortion in the case of rape or incest. But the circumstances of conception should not change the nature of the thing conceived. If it is a human person, killing it is punishing it for something it had nothing to do with. We do not kill people because they had a criminal parent.
(Excerpt) Read more at latimes.com ...
“Obviously we are not going to do that.”
Pity, isn’t it?
He must be going senile.
All the reasoning otherwise is specious if it does not answer the question, "Why are women never prosecuted for initiating an abortion?"
The other reasoning on this Board is not reasoning at all. It consists of scabrous ad hominems that are supposed to convince others the errors of their ways. Finally, George Will has pointed out the enormity of the task--would you charge and convict 1,000,000 or more women each year of a felony? And if so, what would your penalty be?
“I was worried if I read much more, I would begin tearing my own hair out.”
I didn’t even read the article, I figured what is the point. Thanks for confirming it.
If life does not begin at conception, just when does he think it begins and is worthy of protection. I’m all for making abortion retroactive in case of liberals.
Young and ignorant? Sounds like a sub species of some sort.
The phrase "and yet no mischief follow" means "if there is no further injury."
What this means is that if the baby is born ("and her fruit depart from her") but otherwise uninjured --- that is, a premature birth where there is no harm to the baby --- a fine must be paid for causing the premture birth. But if the baby showed any further injury, the penalty is eye for eye, life for life, and so forth.
This is clearly a verse recognizing the human status of the baby, and prescribing penlties accordingly.
It's very important to remember that the Old Testament is not the "last word" on God's Law. Far from it: revelation is gradual and progressive. The whole intent of God is not found in one or another proof-text; and many ambiguities are cleared up in the New Testament. For instance, in Luke 1 you have one unborn baby (you can call him John the Fetus) leaping in the womb in response to another unborn baby (Jesus the Embryo.)
John is not only a human person, but a disciple while still in the womb; and Jesus, as a very young embryo, is not just human but "Lord."
I renew my point that everything that's immoral doesn't have to be handled by criminal prosecution. Observe that plea-bargaining in exchange for testimony against a fellow criminal happens all the time: it doesn't provide strict justice for the snitch who's helping the prosecution, but few would deny that it is absolutely essential for law enforcement.
Of particular interest is Forsyth's comments:
Contrary to the pervasive myth that women were prosecuted for abortion before Roe, consistent state abortion policy for a century before Roe was not to prosecute women. Abortionists were the exclusive target of the law. That was based on three policy judgments: the point of abortion law is effective enforcement against abortionists, the woman is the second victim of abortion, and prosecuting women is counterproductive to the goal of effective enforcement of the law against abortionists. In fact, the irony is that in nearly all of the reported court cases explicitly addressing the issue of whether a woman was an accomplice to her abortion, it was the abortionist (not the prosecutor) who pushed the courts to treat the woman as an accomplice, for the obvious purpose of undermining the state’s criminal case against the abortionist (including the abortionist Ruth Barnett when Oregon last prosecuted her in 1968). Leslie Reagan, in her 1997 book When Abortion Was a Crime, admits that states did not prosecute women for their abortions and concedes that the purpose behind that law was not to degrade women but to protect them. The wisdom of not prosecuting women was based on extensive practical law enforcement experience in many states, over many years. It will certainly be influential with prosecutors and state policy makers when Roe is overturned, and that should be the policy of legislators who are interested in the effective enforcement of abortion law. But Quindlen’s strawman implicitly relies on another myth — that “overturning” Roe will result in the immediate re-criminalization of abortion. In fact, if Roe was overturned today, abortion would be legal tomorrow in at least 43 states, if not all 50. That’s because almost all pre-Roe laws have been repealed. There will be no prosecutions of abortionists unless the states pass new laws after Roe is overturned. — Clarke D. Forsythe is an attorney and president of Americans United for Life. "... Clarke D. Forsythe
>> [Abortion] can only be rendered acceptable by an energetic act of self-deception.
I agree with your remarks how abortion is wrong in the context of Natural Law. I often argue abortion is a humanitarian issue and less that of a religious or political one. Proponents of abortion may in fact need to energize themselves to a state of self-deception, but I also think indifference is natural to the character and disposition of many abortion advocates.
Still yet, it’s absolutely necessary that politicians and religious leaders speak on behalf of the unborn. As is the Natural Law that claims to defend the unborn, it is equally natural for people to demand leadership on issues like these in order define how they should behave. Oddly enough, common sense isn’t sufficient to spare the life of those that are denied the opportunity to share one innocent glance with those who created them and will inevitably kill them.
I lived in NYC and know what he did. The liberals hated him, and conservatives loved him. Maybe you are the sad one. Check the whole record.
Some Republicans may like him, but sorry, he is not a conservative.
To say that he is, is a blatant lie.
I believe that’s life. That doesn't mean I have the solution to the dilemma.
This is inconsistent with the authors own analogy to our treatment of murder In the case of murder, circumstances DO matter. Self-defense, crime of passion, insanity, accident,...Just because we may allow for exceptions does not in abortion does not separate it from our treatment of murder.
Then, you are dangerously ignorant. This is a record to the left of most Democrats:
Illegal immigration/Immigration
Immigration politics have similarly harmed New York. Former mayor Rudolph Giuliani sued all the way up to the Supreme Court to defend the city’s sanctuary policy against a 1996 federal law decreeing that cities could not prohibit their employees from cooperating with the INS. Oh yeah? said Giuliani; just watch me. The INS, he claimed, with what turned out to be grotesque irony, only aims to “terrorize people.” Though he lost in court, he remained defiant to the end. On September 5, 2001, his handpicked charter-revision committee ruled that New York could still require that its employees keep immigration information confidential to preserve trust between immigrants and government. Six days later, several visa-overstayers participated in the most devastating attack on the city and the country in history.
New York conveniently forgot the 1996 federal ban on sanctuary laws until a gang of five Mexicans—four of them illegal—abducted and brutally raped a 42-year-old mother of two near some railroad tracks in Queens. The NYPD had already arrested three of the illegal aliens numerous times for such crimes as assault, attempted robbery, criminal trespass, illegal gun possession, and drug offenses. The department had never notified the INS.
Source: Heather Mac Donald
CNN clip:
Announcer: "Back in 1996, mayor Giuliani went to federal court to challenge new federal laws requiring the city to inform the federal government about illegal immigrants."
Rudy Giuliani: "There isn't a mayor or a public official in this country that's more strongly pro immigrant than I am. Including disagreeing with President Clinton when he signed an anti-immigration legislation about two or three years ago."
The New York Immigrant Coalition Press Release, August, 1989:
Rudy would continue to make city services available to all immigrants, regardless of immigration status.
Prohibit city workers from reporting undocumented immigrants to the INS, unless criminal activity is involved….
Make sure that city workers understand what benefits immigrants are entitled to….
Encourage outreach to immigrant communities to encourage their utilization of city services….
Support the use of interpreters and translators in city government
Support bilingual and bicultural education with goals of learning fluent English and maintaining native language skills….
Oppose making English the “official language” of the U.S.
Support adding alienage to protected class under City’s Human rights Law.
Additionally, he has supported Bush's guest worker program.
Guns
CNN clip
Rudy Giuliani: "I'm in favor of gun control"
Meet The Press:
Tim Russert: "How about registration of all handguns?"
Rudy Giuliani: "You know I'm in favor of that. I've been on your show many times."
As mayor of New York City, Rudolph W. Giuliani became the favorite Republican of gun control advocates. He spoke in favor of a licensing system for gun owners that would require trigger locks and firearms training, and he lobbied Congress to outlaw most military-style assault weapons. He was the only Republican mayor to join a lawsuit by dozens of cities against the gun industry, and he complained that Southern states had lax gun laws that fed the illegal weapons trade in the Northeast.
Abortion
As mayor, Rudy Giuliani will uphold a woman's right of choice to have an abortion. Giuliani will fund all city programs which provide abortions to insure that no woman is deprived of her right due to an inability to pay. He will oppose reductions in state funding. He will oppose making abortion illegal. New York Times, August 4, 1989
Giuliani said in a speech back in 1989: “There must be public funding for abortions for poor women,” Giuliani says in the speech that is posted on the video sharing site YouTube. “We cannot deny any woman the right to make her own decisions about abortion.”
Leaflets distributed by the Giuliani campaign .... said that he opposes restrictions to Federal Medicaid financing for abortions and opposes the Hyde Amendment, which is intended to deny support for that financing. New York Times, June 18, 1993.
On Partial Birth Abortion: Mr. Giuliani has said that New York State law should not be changed to outlaw the procedure. New York Times, January 7, 1998
"I'm pro-choice. I'm pro-gay rights,Giuliani said. He was then asked whether he supports a ban on what critics call partial-birth abortions. "No, I have not supported that, and I don't see my position on that changing," he responded." -- CNN.com, "Inside Politics" Dec 2, 1999
"I never called for the overturning of Roe vs. Wade." Rudy Giuliani, New York Newsday, September 1, 1989
On Parental notification, Giuliani says he's for it now. But read this excerpt from a New York Times article written last month:
"On a 1997 candidate questionnaire from the National Abortion and Reproductive Rights Action League of New York, which Mr. Giuliani completed and signed, he marked ‘yes’ to the question: Would you oppose legislation ‘requiring a minor to obtain permission from a parent or from a court before obtaining an abortion.’”
As these comments from a 1989 conversation with Phil Donahue show, Rudy Giuliani is staunchly in favor of abortion:
"I've said that I'll uphold a woman's right of choice, that I will fund abortion so that a poor woman is not deprived of a right that others can exercise, and that I would oppose going back to a day in which abortions were illegal.
I do that in spite of my own personal reservations. I have a daughter now; if a close relative or a daughter were pregnant, I would give my personal advice, my religious and moral views ...
Donahue: Which would be to continue the pregnancy.
Giuliani: Which would be that I would help her with taking care of the baby. But if the ultimate choice of the woman - my daughter or any other woman - would be that in this particular circumstance [if she had] to have an abortion, I'd support that. I'd give my daughter the money for it."
From the FEC database: 04/24/1999 Donations
NEW YORK STATE NARAL INC WOMEN'S HEALTH PAC
NARAL donated exclusively to Democrat candidates with one exception----Rudy Giuliani.
Giuliani accepted $1,000 from NARAL in 1999.
NARAL gave $250 to Hillary Rodham Clinton.
NARAL gave $1000---4 times as much-----to pro-abortion Giuliani.
The homosexual agenda
Giuliani said homosexuality is "good and normal." quoting Ray Kerrison New York Post, July 7, 1989
According to the New York Times, Giuliani has attended every “gay pride” parade in New York during his eight years as mayor. In 1992, during his first run for mayor, Giuliani took part in a homosexual “pride” parade that included a contingent of pedophile activists marching behind a banner for NAMBLA (North American Man/Boy Love.
On Gay Domestic Partnership: "I have no objection to the concept of domestic partnership," said Rudy Giuliani on Informed Sources New York T.V. Show (PBS), May, 1992
On Gay-Rights/Gay Rights Bill: Giuliani favors extended civil-rights protection for gays and lesbians. Giuliani urged, by letter, to the New York Senate Majority Leader to pass the state's first ever gay rights bill, but did it privately. "I am writing to convey my support for the current legislation to prohibit discrimination against gays and lesbians, and to urge you to allow the bill onto the floor of the Senate for prompt action." ".......It is my belief that we can penalize discrimination [against gays] without creating any potentially objectionable special privileges or preferential treatment." New York Post, June 5, 1993
Judical appointments
A Politico review of the 75 judges Giuliani appointed to three of New York state's lower courts found that Democrats outnumbered Republicans by more than 8 to 1. One of his appointments was an officer of the International Association of Lesbian and Gay Judges. Another ruled that the state law banning liquor sales on Sundays was unconstitutional because it was insufficiently secular.
A third, an abortion-rights supporter, later made it to the federal bench in part because New York Sen. Charles E. Schumer, a liberal Democrat, said he liked her ideology.
Cumulatively, Giuilani's record was enough to win applause from people like Kelli Conlin, the head of NARAL Pro-Choice New York, the state's leading abortion-rights group. "They were decent, moderate people," she said.
Source: Ben Smith, The Politico, 3/1/07
One judge approved by Giuliani, Rosalyn Richter, had been executive director of a gay rights organization, Lambda Legal Defense and Education Fund, before being named to the bench. After her initial appointment by former Mayor David N. Dinkins, Richter changed the questions asked of potential jurors to be more welcoming to gay and lesbian couples. She was later reappointed by Giuliani.
Another judge, appointed by Giuliani to the criminal bench in 1996, Dora Irizarry, has called herself pro-choice and was later elevated to the federal bench with strong support from Democratic Sens. Charles E. Schumer and Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York.
A family court judge reappointed by Giuliani, Sheldon Rand, was excoriated on the conservative-leaning New York Post editorial page last week for ruling that city funds be used to pay for a sex-change operation for an indigent New York resident.
And a fourth judge, Paula J. Hepner, appointed initially by Dinkins in 1995, issued a ruling that allowed a lesbian to adopt her partner's child. Four years later, Giuliani reappointed Hepner to New York's family court bench. Hepner was subsequently married to another woman in a ceremony in Canada.
Source: om Hamburger and Adam Schreck, Los Angeles Times, 3/12/07
Global Warming
"I do believe there's global warming, yes. The big question has always been how much of it is happening because of natural climate changes and how much of it is happening because of human intervention. The overwhelming number of scientists now believe that there is significant human cause." -- Rudolph Giuliani, Feb. 12, 2007.
Taxes
---"Over the objections of a furious Mayor Giuliani and city legislators from both parties, the New York state legislature has abolished the New York City commuter tax. The action, done to apparently affect a local legislative race in suburban Rockland County, could cost New York City $360 million. NPR's Margot Adler reports."--- NPR Report
---"Let's face it: Rudy Giuliani argued for the reinstatement of the tax,..."--- NY Sun report
[Giuliani] says ruling out a tax increase is "political pandering." Newsday, August 31, 1989
"When I ran for Mayor both times, I was asked very, very often to do the following:
Pledge that you will never raise taxes. I refused to do that. Pledge that you will lower taxes. I refused to do that." -- Rudy Giuliani, New York Times, October 25, 1994
Mr. Giuliani criticized Mr. Pataki’s proposal to cut taxes as “a shell game” that would hurt everyone in the state… -- New York Times, October 30, 1994
Government spending
Mr. Giuliani said the surplus from the current fiscal year, which ends on June 30, is projected to be $856 million, a record amount caused largely by higher-than-expected tax revenues from robust profits on Wall Street. He said for the first time that he wanted to use $99 million of that money to help the city adapt to the new strict Federal welfare rules by paying for child care, job training and other programs.
Source: New York Times, Clifford Levy, 5/9/97
Giuliani allowed spending to increase significantly faster than inflation during four of his last five years in office - and another big increase was in store for fiscal 2002 before the World Trade Center attack forced the city into an austerity mode.
Source: FISCALWATCH MEMO July 20, 2004
Not all that well. According to New York's Independent Budget Office, total budgeted expenditures grew from $31.8 billion in 1995 (Rudy's first budget year) to $44.6 billion in 2003, an increase of 40.3%. By comparison, the inflation rate from January 1995 to January 2003 was 20.89% according to this inflation rate calculator. Thus, New York City's spending under Rudy grew at a rate twice that of inflation.
Perhaps the biggest difference is on fiscal issues. Giuliani, who lost interest in curtailing the growth of city government in his latter years, left behind a fiscal catastrophe—a $6.4 billion deficit proportionately bigger than the hole that caused the 1975 fiscal shortfall. --- Jacob Weisberg, Slate magazine 2/21/07
Mr. Clinton is enthusiastic, and in August 1997 uses his tool for the first time to strike down a special-interest provision tucked in a bill. That provision gives New York hospitals a unique right to bilk extra Medicaid money, and the veto is expected to save federal taxpayers at least $200 million. Quicker than a Big Apple pol can say "pork," New York officials sue, challenging the line item veto's constitutionality. That suit, Clinton v. City of New York, goes all the way to the Supremes, which in 1998 put the kibosh on veto authority. The kicker? The guy who brought the suit and won--or, rather, the guy who helped stall one of the more powerful tools for reining in government spending--was none other than former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani.
Source: Kimberly Strassel, Wall Street Journal, 4/14/07
School Choice
We’re going to see increased calls for privatization and for vouchers for private and parochial school education. Alternatives which in my view will weaken if not create the collapse of the New York City public school system…. I believe the voucher system in New York City would be very, very troublesome. Our system is so large that making that kind of transition would pose tremendous difficulties. Not to mention the constitutional and legal difficulties that would be entailed in providing tax relief and tax dollars for religious education.
Rudy Giuliani
Speech to Wharton Club,
New York Times, August 15, 1995
Giuliani himself was on record as repeatedly opposing a voucher system. As a candidate in 1993, he had told United Federation of Teachers’ President Sandra Feldman that he believed vouchers were “unconstitutional.”
In May 1995, he told a UFT conference that “vouchers would bleed the public schools of needed funds.”
In a speech to the Wharton Club in August 1995, the mayor declared, “Vouchers would weaken, if not create the collapse of the New York City public-school system.”
But by January 1999, Giuliani, facing term limits, was seriously thinking about running for the Senate in 2000. His advisers and pollsters were telling him that if he switched his position on vouchers, it would help him with Catholic voters upstate, and the national Republican Party.
So he slipped a favorable reference to a voucher plan into his state of the city address that month.
According to Wayne Barrett’s definitive Giuliani biography, Rudy!, following this voucher’s reference, the mayor told an alarmed Crew, “Don’t worry about it. It’s just a political thing, a campaign thing. I’m not going to do anything. Don’t take it seriously.”
The Full Rudy, pp. 52-53
"He doesn't support tuition tax credits and vouchers." Sandra Feldman, President of N.Y.C. Teacher's Union, 1993
Minimum Wage
"I favor increasing the minimum wage." -- Rudolph Giuliani, 2/6/00, CNN Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer.
Price Controls
Giuliani to Lobby to Save Rent Control (May 24, 1997)
The Tenant/AP ^ | May 24, 1997 | staff
NEW YORK -- Mayor Rudolph Giuliani says he will go back to Albany next week to push to keep rent controls on more than 1 million apartments, and to urge Republican leaders to come around to his position.
``I believe that we should continue rent stabilization and rent control,'' the mayor said. ``I will continue to oppose'' their elimination.
On McCain-Feingold "For example, on campaign finance reform, I'm a very, very strong supporter of Campaign Finance Reform. A very strong supporter of McCain-Feingold for a long, long time now." -- 2/6/00, CNN Late Edition with Wolf Blitzer.
Disregard for Constitutional Rights Mayor Giuliani routinely disregarded the First Amendment as he rejected requests for information from news organizations and civic groups and opposed public access to city hall steps and parks for demonstrations. "Freedom is about authority," Giuliani said, responding to critics in 1998. "Freedom is about the willingness of every single human being to cede to lawful authority a great deal of discretion about what you do and how you do it."
War on Terror
Giuliani Defends Clinton on 9/11 Efforts
FOX News ^ | 09/27/2006 | Matt Sedensky
FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. — Former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani defended Bill Clinton on Wednesday over the former president's counterterrorism efforts, saying recent criticism on preventing the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks is wrong.
Political bickering over which president _ Clinton or George W. Bush _ missed more opportunities to prevent the attacks has been escalating since Clinton gave a combative interview on"Fox News Sunday"in which he defended his efforts to kill Osama bin Laden.
"The idea of trying to cast blame on President Clinton is just wrong for many, many reasons, not the least of which is I don't think he deserves it,"Giuliani said in response to a question after an appearance with fellow Republican Charlie Crist, who is running for governor."I don't think President Bush deserves it. The people who deserve blame for Sept. 11, I think we should remind ourselves, are the terrorists _ the Islamic fanatics _ who came here and killed us and want to come here again and do it."
Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice challenged Clinton's claim that he did more than many of his conservative critics to pursue bin Laden, and she accused the Democrat of leaving no comprehensive plan to fight al-Qaida.
Giuliani said he believed Clinton, like his successor, did everything he could with the information he was provided.
"Every American president I've known would have given his life to prevent an attack like that. That includes President Clinton, President Bush,"the former mayor said."They did the best they could with the information they had at the time."
Welfare Reform
Rudy's Welfare Plea (Fought to keep immigrants on welfare.) New York Daily News (via LexisNexis) ^ | 03/21/1997 | Joel Siegel
Mayor Giuliani took his advocacy for immigrants to Congress yesterday, trying to derail the planned August cut-off of federal welfare benefits to legal immigrants including more than 135,000 in New York City.
He said the abrupt end of food stamps and Supplemental Security Income payments would inflict severe and unfair hardships on legal immigrants and impose financial pain on cities like New York that will be forced to step in and help those who lose aid.
The cut-off was a key provision of the sweeping federal welfare reform approved last summer. Some immigrants will begin losing their benefits in June, with all benefits to be halted by Aug. 22.
"All of these people would [lose assistance] all at once, not phased in, not done in some kind of sensible way in which citizens and states could assess, 'How do we replace these benefits?' " Giuliani said.
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I spotted the circular logic, and there is no need to continue reading: to wit, fetuses are not persons. Here is the problem he has, spelled out in simple terms he can understand:
Life as a dynamic, smooth, continuous process has a beginning. That beginning is conception, a well-circumscribed and finite event in real time and space.
Does this author believe that the organism suddenly *poofs* into humanhood? Does he believe in magic?
His argument by popular opinion is impotent because it lacks a foundation in logic and is therefore not worthy of address.
Science has proven that human fetuses (little ones) are indeed human.
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