Papers Please: Arrested At Circuit City (Donations welcome, the ACLU will get most of it)

MichaelRighi.com ^ | September 2nd, 2007 | Michael Righi,

[antiRepublicrat]

Today was an eventful day. I drove to Cleveland, reunited with my father’s side of the family and got arrested. More on that arrested part to come.

For the labor day weekend my father decided to host a small family reunion. My sister flew in from California and I drove in from Pittsburgh to visit my father, his wife and my little brother and sister. Shortly after arriving we packed the whole family into my father’s Buick and headed off to the grocery store to buy some ingredients to make monkeybread. (It’s my little sister’s birthday today and that was her cute/bizare birthday request.)

Next to the grocery store was a Circuit City. (The Brooklyn, Ohio Circuit City to be exact.) Having forgotten that it was my sister’s birthday I decided to run in and buy her a last minute gift. I settled on Disney’s “Cars” game for the Nintendo Wii. I also needed to purchase a Power Squid surge protector which I paid for separately with my business credit card. As I headed towards the exit doors I passed a gentleman whose name I would later learn is Santura. As I began to walk towards the doors Santura said, “Sir, I need to examine your receipt.” I responded by continuing to walk past him while saying, “No thank you.”

As I walked through the double doors I heard Santura yelling for his manager behind me. My father and the family had the Buick pulled up waiting for me outside the doors to Circuit City. I opened the door and got into the back seat while Santura and his manager, whose name I have since learned is Joe Atha, came running up to the vehicle.

[Quick1]

They have a store policy that you show the receipt.

Having a store policy doesn't make it legal. The store policy could be a cavity search on your way out (after all, you can hide that flash drive anywhere, you little thief!). Would that be any more legal?

Are you saying they have no right to have that policy or to enforce it?

If it's an illegal policy, then yes, they have no right to enforce it.

[CholeraJoe]

Not likely. They will produce deputies who will swear you were violently resisting and of course the dashcam on their vehicle was broken. Oh yeah, say goodbye to your watch and any cash you have on you.

[Starwolf]

The problem is that no one knows it was a legal purchase except the guy who's engaging in the suspicious behavior.

So the store should say, go ahead with our products because we haven't had time to run the tapes back for your entire visit to the store.

Any competent Loss Prevention Specialist knows that probable cause is required to stop and detain some one and that refusing a post sales receipt check is not probable cause. To legitimately stop someone they need to observe the crime and the perp until they leave the store. If they don’t, they will not grab the person, since they know the legal ramifications if they are wrong. The problem is that few loss prevention types are pros.

The CC guys went well outside the law and will get hammered for it.

[nicmarlo]

Stores have no right to state ALL their customers are shoplifters. They must have a reasonable suspicion that a theft occurred to detain someone. They otherwise have no right to search.

This guy’s demeanor or motivation does not enter into whether or not he stole, which, he indeed, did not. They never stated they believed he stole anything...they only stated he refused to let them search him/his belongings...and they had no reason for doing so.

[monday]

“Being a jerk is not a crime....”

er.... thats what I said.

[Quick1]

probable cause is required to stop and detain some one and that refusing a post sales receipt check is not probable cause.

I don't understand why people on this site are having such difficulty with this. The man was well within his rights to refuse the receipt check, and the CC manager was an idiot who is going to get a nice re-education session from either HR or a Loss Prevention manager.

[pierstroll]

Now the business must have a loading dock and run the product directly into the car? What else do they have to do so you don't have to open a bag at the door and feel violated. You have crossed the line at being ridiculous.

You can be stopped for pants if the receipt shows you didn't buy the pair you're wearing and there's an old pair in the bag or for the second pair you're wearing. All because the receipt was checked at the door.

[nicmarlo]

Then you shouldn’t be defending the cop, either, who also was in the wrong here.

The store illegally detained the customer.

Look, for all I know, this guy’s motivation is to fund raise for the ACLU, an organization I despise. But, the point remains, we should not so willingly go along with searches when there is no reason for them. Legally purchasing a product does not give rise to thereafter being allowed to be subject to searches or being detained. It’s preposterous, actually.

[monday]

“No, I’m in favor of keeping my rights. It’s not my fault the store can’t come up with a better security policy to control shoplifting, is it?”

Does congress have to give store owners the ‘right’ to search every patron as soon as they step foot on store premises? Why would that make you happy? Unless you shop lift regularly, why does it bother you if you are asked for a receipt at the exit?

[nicmarlo]

Unless you shop lift regularly, why does it bother you if you are asked for a receipt at the exit?

That's the whole point. Why should I be under threat of arrest unless I comply with searches?

[pierstroll]

Stores do not declare all their customers shoplifters. Where did you get that from. Shoplifting is a billion dollar problem. Some stores check product leaving the store to see if it matches the receipt. The people who do these systems say it prevents a lot of theft. Now what is illegal about that? I guess the major chains that do that are all doing something illegals for decades.

If you don't follow the policy of the store regarding product check, I believe that to be reasonable cause. If you just want to exercise your libertarianism, you should shop at non-totalitarian stores where they don't give a damn if you steal and raise prices.

Store employees have the right to detain and make citizens arrests. I know some one who has done it dozens of time and successfully testified about it in court.

[Starwolf]

So I guess you are in favor of making it easier for shop lifters to steal? Interesting. There are only two reasons I can think of that would lead you to this conclusion. I imagine you are aware of both of them so I won’t go into them.

Actually there is a well defined and prescribed way to detain shoplifters for probable cause, but it does not involve post sales receipt checks.

Your position seems to be since I have nothing to hide, I should not object to being searched by a private party though I have done nothing.

[nicmarlo]

I just posted the Ohio law.

Merchants cannot legally detain anyone unless they have a reasonable suspicion someone stole.

Merchants cannot legally search anyone.

This store illegally detained the guy AND they demanded to search him.

[Quick1]

Now the business must have a loading dock and run the product directly into the car? What else do they have to do so you don't have to open a bag at the door and feel violated.

I was merely giving a suggestion, I'm not a Loss Prevention specialist. Also, what business that sells big ticket items like TVs doesn't have a loading dock?

You can be stopped for pants if the receipt shows you didn't buy the pair you're wearing and there's an old pair in the bag or for the second pair you're wearing.

So if I walk into JC Penney with a brand new pair of Arizona jeans, and then head towards the exit without purchasing anything, you're saying that I could be stopped and asked for my receipt, and when I refuse (because I don't have the receipt anymore), I could be arrested for shoplifting? You are completely and utterly wrong.

[nicmarlo]

Stores do not declare all their customers shoplifters. Where did you get that from.

They take the default position that everyone is stealing but demanding that everyone prove they didn't steal when they leave the store, but subjecting them to searches.

[nicmarlo]

when they leave the store , but BY subjecting them to

[pierstroll]

Let's bet on that.

The store has the right to enforce the policy and get their product back if you refuse. It is a basic method of property protection.

As for arrest, they are subject to the rules of citizen arrests not the laws controlling police department.

When the cops respond, they will follow their guidelines if they take the person into custody.

It's heroic to some of you what this guy did, but it's contrary to the property rights of the big bad store.

[monday]

“Then you shouldn’t be defending the cop, either, who also was in the wrong here.”

Usually I am against cops who abuse their authority. I am a libertarian. check my page. In this case however, the guy was being such a jerk, for no reason other than to annoy and waste everyones time. I sympathize with the cop and the store this time.

[Quick1]

Does congress have to give store owners the ‘right’ to search every patron as soon as they step foot on store premises? Why would that make you happy?

So you're saying that you would be fine giving up your right to not be searched without cause?

Unless you shop lift regularly, why does it bother you if you are asked for a receipt at the exit?

I suppose if I refuse to allow a police officer to search my car without cause, it must be because I have a bong in the backseat, right?

[Quick1]

Some stores check product leaving the store to see if it matches the receipt. The people who do these systems say it prevents a lot of theft. Now what is illegal about that?

Absolutely nothing is illegal about that. I don't debate that it's absolutely legal for stores to ask to check my receipt. However, I'm also trying to tell you that it is also legal for me to refuse such a search.