Posted on 07/27/2007 10:36:59 PM PDT by NOOBIE
The Buncombe County Sheriff’s Office arrested activists Mark and Deborah Kuhn in West Asheville Wednesday morning after a complaint that the couple was desecrating an American flag. They say a deputy invaded their home and used excessive force. [The photo at right, taken by a neighbor, shows Mark on the ground, with Deborah standing by, during the arrest.]
The flag was hung upside down as an act of protest and had several statements pinned to it, including a picture of President Bush with the words “Out Now” upon it and one explaining the meaning of the upside down flag, a sign of distress.
The Kuhns, along with several neighbors and witnesses, assert that a sheriff’s deputy violently invaded their home at 68 Brevard Road. The sheriff’s office claims that the couple assaulted deputy Brian Scarborough and resisted arrest.
According to the report from the sheriff’s office, Scarborough arrived at the home at 8:45 a.m. in response to a complaint about the desecration of a flag.
Lt. Randy Sorrell says that while the address was in the city of Asheville, “when we receive a complaint that the law is being broken, we have to respond.”
Under a rarely enforced state statute, it is a misdemeanor to desecrate or trample a U.S. or North Carolina flag. The Kuhns said the flag was taken as evidence, though the sheriff’s department has no record of it.
After knocking on the door, the couple answered it and, after being shown the statute, said they complied and took the flag down. Scarborough then asked for their identification.
“The flag covered our whole front porch; he comes up with this printout about the law and tells us that we can’t attach things to the flag, that we’re desecrating it,” Deborah Kuhn said. “We tell him we’re not meaning to desecrate it — all we had was a picture of [President] Bush with ‘out now’ on it and a note saying this was not a sign of distress or disrespect. We did this because the country is in distress and we don’t know what to do.”
Then, she said, Scarborough “started talking arrest, so we took the flag down. He kept wanting to see our ID. We refused. We said, ‘Why should we show you our ID — are you arresting us?’; so we walked back into the house and closed the door.”
There, the accounts diverge. According to Deborah Kuhn, Scarborough “tried to force the door, but we got it closed and locked it with the deadbolt. He then kicked it, punched the glass out, unlocked our door and came after us.”
The sheriff’s office report states that “the man [Mark Kuhn] refused to identify himself and slammed the door on the officer’s hand, breaking the glass pane out of the door and cutting the officer’s hand.”
However, the Kuhns’ account is backed up by Jimmy Stevenson, who was working with Ace Hardwood Floors nearby and asserts that he saw Scarborough break down the door.
“I saw that one cop [Scarborough] pull up and I saw those people come out on the porch and start talking to him,” Stevenson said. “They took their flag down, asked the officer to leave and closed the door. Then he started kicking the door, he kicked it about five or six good times, then he laid right into it. After he got done kicking it, he broke the window out – I saw him hit the window.”
Deborah Kuhn says that Scarborough then “pursued my husband into the kitchen, they were scuffling, [and] Mark was trying to get away from him. He pulls out his billy club and I call 911 and say that an officer has broken into our house and is assaulting us.”
Scarborough sustained a cut to his arm when the window broke and Mark Kuhn had several cuts on his face from the scuffle with Scarborough.
“I was just trying to defend myself and back away from him,” Kuhn said. “They never, ever told us why we were being arrested until we were in jail.”
Deborah Kuhn asserted that no warrant was displayed or permission asked to enter the house. After calling 911, she says, she ran outside and began screaming for help.
Sam York, who lives nearby the couple, was awakened by the struggle, as the Kuhns and Scarborough both came out into the yard. “I woke up to Debbie screaming,” he said. “Mark and Debbie were saying ‘you assaulted us’ and the officer [Scarborough], was demanding their identification. Then another officer threatened them with a taser. He told Debbie to back away or he’d taser her and demanded that Mark get on the ground.”
Sorrell confirms this part of the account: “When they were outside, one of the other officers produced a taser and he [Mark Kuhn] surrendered and submitted.”
Deborah Kuhn’s screams also drew the attention of Shawn Brady and several of his roommates, who live next door to the couple. “I run outside and ask them what’s going on and there’s cops chasing Mark around his car,” Brady said. “They threaten to taser him and demand that he get on the ground. He gets on the ground and we ask them what they’re being charged with. They tell us it’s none of our concern. I tell them they’re our neighbors and it is our concern.”
Neal Wilson, who lives with Brady, also saw the deputy produce the taser, he says. After repeated questions, Brady and roommate Tony Plichta said that the deputies replied that “they didn’t know yet” what the couple would be charged with.
“This is an outrage,” Brady said. “The 1st, 4th and 5th Amendments were clearly broken today.” Plichta expressed similar anger. “They actually wanted to know why we cared — these are our neighbors,” he said.
Following the arrest, the Kuhns were taken to the Buncombe County Detention Facility, where they were charged with two counts of assaulting a government official, and one count each of resisting arrest and desecrating an American flag. Their son posted their bail shortly afterwards.
This was not the first time that the flag had attracted attention. On July 18, with just the upside-down flag hanging, an Asheville police officer stopped by to inquire about the situation.
“He was very polite and just said that because it was a sign of distress, he wanted to make sure everything was OK,” Deborah Kuhn said. “We said we had it out as a show of desperation — our country is in distress and we just don’t know what to do. We asked if we had violated any ordinance. He said, ‘No, you have every right.’”
After that, Deborah Kuhn said that she posted up the picture of Bush and the explanation of their reasons for displaying the flag in protest.
A couple of days later, Mark Kuhn said that a man in military fatigues came to their door, and was driving a car with a federal license plate. “He stood here telling me that I needed to take the flag down or fly it right,” he said.
Kuhn adds that he assumed the man was with the National Guard, due to the nearby armory.
Wilson, Plichta and Brady said that after the man stopped by, they also saw him drive by several times during the following days, and one night, witnessed several other men in fatigues taking pictures of the flag.
Furthermore, Wilson said that as the Kuhns were being arrested and taken off, he saw a man in fatigues drive by and shout “Go to jail, baby!”
After his experience, Mark Kuhn said he is convinced this is not an isolated occurrence. “If Americans don’t wake up to the martial state we’re in, the cops, the police, the sheriffs, the state police will all come to our door and take us away if we allow this to happen – it’s time for America to wake up.”
Will it become a talking point for libs and the MSM? Absolutely.
There is alot of bashing the cop in this thread. Not everyone, but a very significant number. All there is at this point is a poorly written article in a local paper.
It’s a little too “Murtha” to pronounce the LEO(s) “bad cops” and guilty at this point in time. Well, atleast that is the way I see it. I would like to see the report of medical care that the officer needed before I announce that the wittnesses were correct. I would want to see proof that the witnesses were actually there at the time the incident occured and not just repeating what they wanted to believe happened. How many did the wife call on her cellphone to come be witnesses? What is on the dash cams?
And who the heck is the “roomate” who pronounced the arrest as a violation of the 1st, 5th and 14th amendment? Why is this repeated as fact and was he even there?
Too much Murtha going on for my skepical nature.
In this case no because he was investigating a misdemeanor offense that was clearly visible from the street.
>>There is alot of bashing the cop in this thread. Not everyone, but a very significant number. All there is at this point is a poorly written article in a local paper.<<
I have tried to add clauses like “if the article is true” but the truth is this story is so much like the other stories of police excess its easy to believe. Its like the little old lady who got beat up for not giving ID - that was wrong and it was real.
But you are right. We have only a report at this point.
>>In this case no because he was investigating a misdemeanor offense that was clearly visible from the street.<<
Does it make a difference that the law he is investigating under is unconstitutional and every cop in the country knows about that case because its famous?
Your papers please, indeed.
Believe it or not I agree with you but I do not see this case that way.
These cops were investigating as complaint. They found that a misdemeanor had been committed (whether you agree that desecration is a crime or not it is on the books there). And the way I view the LEO’s actions he was willing to let it go because they took the flag down.
But as soon as he asked for ID the couple got defensive and then offensive. They choose to flee in to their house and lock the door when the LEO persisted in demanding their ID (which he had every right to do and is most likely standard procedure).
At this point an arrest was guaranteed. It is an open and shut case of fleeing an LEO and resisting arrest.
Wow, that sure looks like abuse....Yawn!!!
(If that’s abuse, the guy’s just too delicate to survive)
>>Wow, that sure looks like abuse....Yawn!!!
(If that’s abuse, the guy’s just too delicate to survive)<<
A false arrest, especially for somebody who has never been arrested before can be a big deal
See post #70. There was no charge of fleeing mentioned, so I'm not buying it. As for resisting arrest - they were in the process of being questioned when they went inside their home, not in the process of being arrested. The decision to arrest had not been made at that point, so I don't see how resisting arrest would apply to the time prior to the forced entry.
We've agreed this was not a felony invetigation, and based on the article, there were no charges filed for failure to produce ID, and there were no charges of fleeing.
So I have to ask, what was the justification for a warrantless entry?
Think of a common traffic stop. The LEO steps up to the car window and asks the driver for his driver’s license and registration. The driver complies. The driver gets his citation and documents back. The LEO becomes suspicious of the mannerisms of the driver and asks to search the car. The driver says no and immediately drives off.
In many cases where suspicions arise the LEO will call for a drug dog to search the car. This officer was in the middle of an investigation. The officer had not yet released this suspect. He will give chase. And the suspect will be charged with fleeing and resisting arrest. The circumstances are the same.
We've agreed this was not a felony invetigation, and based on the article, there were no charges filed for failure to produce ID, and there were no charges of fleeing.
That’s true but what anyone is charged with is entirely up to the local prosecutor. Maybe this prosecutor doesn’t like to pile on when he considers the initiating offence trivial (couldn’t blame him here).
But that does not change the fact that these people’s actions gave the LEOs the reasons necessary to enter their home. If they file a lawsuit I doubt they can win.
The courts will look down at the prosecutor and ask a simple question. “Why was this officer enforcing a law that has been struck down twice by the US Supreme Court?” All other questions become moot at that point, for the LEO had no LEGAL reason to be on that porch (though he may have thought so, but as we citizens often find out, ignorance of the law is no defense), or to question the Kuhns.
Once that determination is made, all actions by the officer are outside the color of law, and he is not considered a LEO for he has no basis in law for being there. All demands made by him are not legal, so the ‘suspects’ are illegally kidnapped by him.
This lawsuit will win, and these charges will not hold up. They were flawed from the get-go.
That is one thing I have believed from the beginning is that the officer did not intend to arrest them until they refused to produce ID.
Given the undeniable fact that the officer has been caught in one MAJOR lie
What do you think that the officer was lying about?
From what I read none of the witnesses were close enough to hear what was said.
Where were distances ever mentioned in the article? In most towns/cities, across the street means anywhere from 25 to 50 feet, and normal conversations are audible from that distance, and somehow I doubt that conversation was ‘normal’. LEOs are trained to speak in a loud, clear voice to try to eliminate confusion. Further, police vehicles pulled up next door tend to create interest on the part of the neighbors, causing further narrowing of that distance.
The cop was wrong. No matter how much we detest the ‘message’ the Kuhns were trying to make, they have every right to convey that message. The US Constitution says so, as well as the Declaration. I swore an oath to defend that Founding document, and I mean to keep my word, no matter if I agree with the message or not.
If you want to try to take away that right because you disagree, imagine what will happen if the socialist “Democrats” take over in the next election. I am certain you will be all for that right. Think about it.
I’ve stated on this thread repeatedly that I do not think that Flag desecration should be illegal.
That being stated there is a law on the books in NC which the LEO is bound to uphold (he no doubt swore an oath to uphold the laws of his state). The LEO was investigating a crime. The suspects refused to present ID when requested and retreated to their home and locked the door (Barricaded suspects).
IMO the LEO was acting within his authority.
And you are as wrong as two left testicles!
That law was struck down nearly twenty years ago, and was reaffirmed as unConstitutional just a few SCOTUS sessions ago. A LEO enforcing a long confirmed unConstitutional law is no different than a home invader. So this supposed ‘desecration’ hadn’t been a crime in a generation! It doesn’t matter that this idiot was supposedly upholding his ‘oath’, which my wife and I are beginning to suspect that this was all caused by his buddy in the NCANG, so he wasn’t in the legal right in the first place.
The cop had no legal reason to be there. That you have yet to refute, making ALL of your pro-statist arguments moot. Not that I’d expect you to actually understand that, seeing your total disregard for the very foundation of our government. Our government, that DOES NOT EXIST without that document! The US Consitution founded the .gov, not the country... contrary to the views of many here.
Our Founders were very smart men. They understood that this could happen... ie, people would begin to see the .gov as the country, not the IDEA of freedom. Most people see true freedom as dangerous, as it seems you do. You don’t understand that freedom enbraces many things. You think anything you disagree with, such as resisting a LEO exceeding legal authority, should not be allowed, merely because of his badge.
Again, you would be wrong.
Agreed that they decide which charges will ultimately be pursued. But the Khunes were arrested, charged, and bailed out a "short time later", according to the article. I thought police could bring initial charges. Are you saying the DA's office had to be involved with the Khune case at that point?
But that does not change the fact that these people's actions gave the LEOs the reasons necessary to enter their home. If they file a lawsuit I doubt they can win.
Time will tell whether what you characterize as a fact holds up, but I'd bet good money it won't. These charges will be dropped, and Buncombe County will end up writing a big check, IMO.
Hey we can disagree with out being disagreeable can’t we? (I know I can)
You made a lot of statements about me (assumptions) none of which are true. But I won’t bother refuting them (not worth it I wouldn’t convince you) but I will stick to the topic.
Under the assumption that you are correct that the LEO was exceeding his authority this Deputy’s sergeant or lieutenant should have corrected that error when he brought the Khunes in to the station. Barring that (the superiors may want to cover his butt) the prosecutor should dismiss the case when he/she reviews the case because it is un-winnable.
Wrong! One, I will not disagree without being disagreeable. I am much too ornery for that. My beliefs, supported by the Founders writings, run FAR too deep than that. You may, but you lack the basis of your covictions, for you are WRONG! Your ideas are sound, but in practice unsound! You are intelligent. THINK!!!
I am very familiar with the way LEOs today think. I am the progeny of many generations of said (about 100 years), and the step-father of one. The directly prior generations disapproved, and the paternal prior (Police Hall of Fame for his efforts) resigned in order to avoid having to enforce what is happening today. The current generation of familial LEO doesn’t know his a$$ from a hole in the ground!!! Much to my chagrin, as I attempted to teach him that the US Constitution trumps all. He believed in the end that POLITICAL LAW trumps all, regardless of what the Founders said. I am ashamed that I failed. I shall go to my grave knowing that I FAILED...
I have read your FR page. You and I should agree. I am a devout follower of what the Founders created. What they created was NOT what the LEO says, or what the politician-cum-black-robed thug says.
Prosecutors today aren’t what you remember. They are politicians first. You sound like a person who remembers freedom. Apply that to this.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.