Posted on 07/10/2007 8:44:13 AM PDT by Do Be
I just wanted to throw this out to get other opinions before I send out this email.
The short version, so as to understand this email, is that my 17 year old son works for a small company.
One day, when the owner and his son had left the site of the business for the day, my son drove a vehicle he was told not to, and was in an accident(off road, hit a tree). With him was a 16 year old whose arm was broken. My son recieved a cut eyelid and a good thump on his knee.
There was about $1500-$2000 damage done to the vehicle which my son told the owner he would pay for and they agreed that the owner would take half his wages until it was paid.
In addition, they sold my son a $500 car. We paid for the car a few weeks ago but they delayed getting the title to me until yesterday, and on the back of the title had put a $1200 lien.
THE EMAIL:
Good morning.
I am not in accord with, and somewhat confused by your motives of, the "lien" you wrote on the back of the car title. The problem is that this pushes the entire affair into the “legal” realm.
Your agreement about the money owed by Alex to you, for the damage to the vehicle that he was in the accident with, is with Alex, not with me, and is, at most, a gentleman’s agreement.
Alex is a minor. As such, his agreement with you may or may not be a legal one. I have not gotten in the way of this agreement, or tried to influence it in any way, because unless there is a need for “dad” to get involved, Alex is at the age where I am trying to stay out of his business.
In my mind, you are as much accountable as Alex for this accident. Your decision to hire minors at your place of business comes with the responsibility to provide a safe environment, including adequate supervision. The fact that boys will be boys and kids are kids is a fact of life and must be taken into account when hiring minors. At least in my mind.
I am in not saying that I know better than you how to run your business, but it seems to me that if you leave your workplace in the hands of unsupervised minors you can probably expect an accident or two.
In essence, I purchased, for $500, a 1995 Ford Taurus with 200,000 miles, in unknown mechanical condition, in the hopes that I could fix it up cheaply enough for Alex to have something to drive.
Until I have a valid title, I don’t really have the car. I don’t know why it took so long for me to get the title but now, with the lien on the back, I still do not have the title because there is no way I can use it.
Why did you do this without first speaking with me? Now that it is written in ink on the back of the title it is an issue. One I don’t have time for right now but Alex tells me you are about to go to Alaska for a month or so. I have no need for a non functional, unregisterable vehicle to be sitting in front of my house for the next month or so until you get back and we figure out what to do about all of this.
I asked Alex where the figure of $1,200 came from. He doesn’t know.
I asked Alex how much you are saying he needs to pay you until his “debt” is paid. He doesn’t know.
I asked Alex how much he has paid to you so far. He doesn’t know.
He tells me that instead of you taking half of each paycheck until the account is settled, as was previously discussed, you are keeping every other paycheck, of undetermined(because he doesn’t work set hours)and undocumented(because you have given him no accounting) amount.
Alex is a kid. He doesn’t know that there are laws governing such things. Nor does he realize that once things are taken beyond a handshake agreement into the legal realm, they can become a little daunting, and it is then that one needs to be more careful.
Alex was taken to a doctor the day after the accident. He had his eye checked out to make sure there would be no damage to his vision, and his knee x-rayed. The conclusion at the time was that he was probably going to be okay.
His knee has been hurting him, on and off, since then. Sometimes the pain lasts for a couple days and sometimes for just a few hours. My wife and I have spoken about it and decided to wait to see if it will not simply correct itself, but enough time has gone by now that we think the doctor should probably look at it again.
And as we discussed it, we realized that there has been no Worker’s Compensation claim filed for this accident.
One more thing, which confuses me a little. You told me this past Sunday when I picked Alex up that he was probably a little angry with you because you had been riding him a little hard all day. That you had observed him, on one of your surveillance cameras, standing around when he should have been working and that you called him and asked him what he was doing and he said working and you said, “No you’re not.” With the implication that you two had sort of played this game all day until he was exasperated with you.
When I asked him about this later, he said that this had not taken place at all. This is not the first time that you have related something to me about Alex and when I have spoken to him about it he has claimed that either the event had not taken place at all or that his version was not compatible with yours. I have registered such things in the back of my mind but I usually don’t get into “he said, she said” issues.
But this time, he said, “I can prove it this time,” and gave me his cell phone. There was no call from you to him on that day.
In short, you and I need to talk. I have emailed you first, as much to put down my concerns so that I may better see them, as to give you a head’s up before we talk.
That's what I thought too. I think that's what sort of raised the flag for me. This accomplishes nothing except to make the $1200 'legal', so to speak. I'm sort of waiting for the other shoe to drop and curious to see what it is.
My son has already paid off somewhere around $500 and there is no reason to believe that he will not pay the rest. So, why the lien?
Thanks
Huh? If she paid for it, it's hers. She can't get her money back from the seller.
The only way she could possibly gain in a situation like that is if the seller financed the transaction. In that case she could walk away from it. But if she paid for the car it's a done deal.
You need to hire a local lawyer. Your son is lucky he isn’t facing felony charges - yet.
It's just protection for the employer. He has no other good recourse against your son so he protected himself where he could. It's not a big deal. When your son pays off the damages the lien can be released. Other than hurt feelings for not being completely trusted, your son suffers no damage from the lien.
When you act like a lawyer, expect to be treated like one.
I would not have sent that e-mail, and by doing so most likely sent them for one.
All they did was memorialize the debt that you agreed to.
Your son got off easy. The passenger could have been killed by the carelessness of your son. Then his/your problems would have been 10 fold financially and morally. Since your son took the truck without permission which your freely admit the owner could have him arrested for unauthorized use of a motor vehicle. You and your son should be patting the owner on the back thanking him. Take responsibility for the damage and move on.
From what you’ve posted it would seem that your son is accountable for the damage to the car, his injuries and the injuries to the other kid. In addition he’s 17 and you’re trying to teach him to be responisble yet he can’t seem to give you a straight answer.
You would be wise to talk to his boss in person and not get involved in a documented e-mail war with implied threats in it.
In short your problem is with your son, not his boss.
You waited a little too long to become involved. Because your son is a minor, you are responsible for his actions/debts. I know, that doesn’t go down easy with the kid or the parent, but that’s the way it is.
Return the car. Get a final bill from his soon-to-be-ex-employer. Pay the bill. Make your son find a job, then you deduct car payments from his check. And do charge him interest. He needs to learn from this.
I agree, the employer sounds like he’s playing games. I’m sure he thought putting the lien on the title would guarantee that your son stayed in his employ until the debt was paid.
Any attempt on your part to put some of the blame on the employer for your son’s actions (as mundane as they were...said the mother of 2 boys) will only make you look like you are trying to excuse your son’s behaviour. And that’s not what you want, right? You’re not trying to teach your son that there is “wiggle room” when it comes to breaking the law, right?
Sincerely, hopefully, and most of all, sympathetically,
Mom who survived 2 teen-aged boys, about 5 cars, and one dearly missed Land Cruiser!
The owner should have fired him then and there and then filled out an accident report with the police and filed a claim with insurance. He could try and recoup the money from your son for deductable but since your son had used the truck in other work situations he would have a hard time collecting.
Your son would have had a lesson presented to him about the consequences of not following the boss’ orders and all would have been able to move on.
As an aside, there was plenty of stuff we did as kids that would match what your son did.
Get another son; give the sneak his $1200; drop the Taurus in the nearest lake and burn that letter.
The dad should be glad the business owner handled it this way. Now he is firing off nasty letters?
Just from a brief read it looks as though they are using the car sold to your son as collateral for the money he promised to pay them.
I do not know the law about this. But it would not be odd for someone to want such security. Your son admitted he was in the wrong and promised to pay. Remind him that he promised to do the right thing and if he reneges on that promise he risks losing not only his reputation but his car.
Wise advice. But will he take it.
When my son volunteered to pay for the damage, I think that he being responsible. Don't you?
What's the purpose of your post? Do you feel glorified to rub in that my son did something stupid?
Your crack about not learning this lesson at home is ignorant. I'm sure that you have faithfully carried out all you learned at home without error.
Since your post is not funny, nor was it meant to be, and since it contains no useful info at all, I can only assume that you are one of those nasty people I asked to not reply.
Shoo. Go away. Go make your parents proud. And when you grow up and one of your kids does something less than the perfection you have taught them, remember this moment that you may repent.
My thought as well.
http://www.nrtw.org/c/ncrtwlaw.htm
`right to work’ basically means ‘employment at will’: an employer can fire an employee for any reason or no reason at all. (as a corollary, an employee can quit without notice for any reason.)
If your son doesn’t have an employment contract his boss can let him go without cause, although it looks like there is clear cause for dismissal here.
I agree with pretty much everything you said. This is why I haven't gotten involved before now and why I didn't send the email and probably won't. Had he not put the lien on the title I would not have ever been involved but his doing so involves me as the title had to be signed over to me and not my son, because of his age.
As another poster said, the lien is a moot point because the next owner of the car will be the junk yard.
So I somewhat suspect something to follow that will explain this action, else why would he choose to involve me?
“When my son volunteered to pay for the damage, I think that he being responsible. Don’t you?”
This is part of your problem, volunteering to pay for it is irrelevant, he was obligated to pay for it but you want to give him some sort of credit.
Your son could have been arrested if the owner had so chosen and you seem to think it appropriate to question his logic in securing repayment for what he is owed using the lien.
Don’t get into a legal pissing match with the owner, you’ll lose.
So what is your problem. The owner already told your son not to drive the truck which he ignored. Why take another promise from him. What are you afraid of.... Holding his feet to the fire.
Drop the car off at the business. Take your son to the hospital to document his injuries. The business owner is responsible for EVERYTHING THAT HIS EMPLOYEES DO WHILE ON COMPANY TIME, regardless of the fact that he has hired minors under the table. Every labor law in the country bears this out!
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