Posted on 06/24/2007 8:12:23 PM PDT by nj26
At first glance, Rudolph W. Giuliani should be an appealing presidential candidate for observant Roman Catholics. The grandchild of Italian immigrants, Mr. Giuliani went to Catholic schools, considered joining the priesthood, and as mayor of New York battled a museum that exhibited a painting of the Virgin Mary adorned in elephant dung.
But church leaders say they are frustrated by prominent Catholic politicians like Mr. Giuliani who argue that while they are personally opposed to abortion, they do not want to impose their beliefs on others.
One American bishop, Thomas J. Tobin of Providence, R.I., recently wrote a caustic column for his Catholic newspaper calling Mr. Giuliani’s position “pathetic,” “confusing” and “hypocritical.” Other bishops said that they would not criticize a candidate by name but would not hesitate to declare Mr. Giuliani’s stance contrary to Catholic teaching...
Archbishop John J. Myers of Newark said: “I think he’s being illogical, as are all of those who take the stand that ‘I’m personally opposed to abortion but this is my public responsibility to permit it.’ To violate human life is always and everywhere wrong. In fact, we don’t think it’s a matter of church teaching, but a matter of the way God made the world, and it applies to everyone.”
The presidential campaign of John Kerry, a Democrat, suffered in 2004 when about a dozen of the nation’s more than 200 bishops declared that they would deny him communion because of his abortion stance...
But some American bishops who favored denying communion said that recent comments by the pope would bolster their approach. Pope Benedict XVI told reporters last month that Catholic legislators in Mexico who had recently voted to allow abortion had effectively excommunicated themselves from the church.
(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...
Hehehe... bruising for a fight, are you? First - you must define "true faith". The ONLY way to accurately define that is by comparing whatever faith/denomination to WHAT THE BIBLE defines as "true faith". The Bible should be the FIRST authority on what faith is correct - above and beyond "tradition", or the utterance of any man other than Jesus Christ himself. There is nothing wrong with "tradition" as long as it aligns with the scripture.
I will now go to bed and put my flame suit on.
The question is, who has apostolic succession that can be traced back to Jesus Christ. Peter was the rock on which the faith was meant to be built. Now, the Orthodox and Anglicans can trace a line of succession, because they can trace to when they split, but, they are still in open rebellion against God’s pilgrim church on Earth.
Funny how the same folks that sometimes say you cannot always interpret the Bible literally, somehow want to take that one verse (somewhat out of context) and interpret it with a very narrow and literal interpretation.
Some would prefer interpret that verse as something more along the lines of the “Church” will be founded on men “like Peter” who are strong spritually, endowed with leadership and faith of “a rock”. This also is reflected in the semi-autonomous nature of the early Church still reflected in the Bible, especially shown in the Apostle Paul’s writings.
An in-depth study of early church history, from the Apostolic age through the last century is fascinating - and eye-opening.
Then again, I don’t recall the term “Pope” or “Pontiff” being used by Jesus Christ either... (now to duck-and-cover)...
Oh puleeeeeeeeze. Did you forget to add the sarcasm symbol (/s) after that nonsensical question?
Aye, that it is.
As the English scholar and convert John Henry (Cardinal) Newman put it, "To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant."
“Soo, now, NYT’s is a reliable source for news and commentaries? Still voting for Rudy.”
I find that amazing too. All of a sudden AP, the NY Times etc. are not really so bias after all! I’ll probably vote for whoever the NY Times goes after the most since this will be the one they worry most could defeat their candidate (Hillary).
After all, would you expect him to say anything less after making his "conversion"?
But as a current seminary student, who has done a little informal research on early church history (a big and growing interest for me), I have not found (so far...hehe) what Cardinal Newman found.
You make it seem as if I abandoned the faith of intolerance and ignorance.
It wasn’t he who made it seem like it.
No. We don't know that.
While I believe abortion is the murder of a human being, God is our ultimate judge. He knows everything about us...which is far more than we know about ourselves, let alone other human beings.
Good riddance to you.
No. We don't know that.
Aren’t good Christians supposed to be accepting and tolerant of all people? Isn’t that what Jesus taught? Or have you lost sight of the fact that we are all Christians?
What a brilliant comment! (sarc)
Is this your message?
"I am a Catholic who has no tolerance for anyone who has a different opinion of the Catholic Church than I do."
"Unless you're beliefs are the same as mine, I want nothing to do with you. As long as you keep your opinions to yourself, I'll accept you."
You trash our Church as “b.s.,” and then you cast yourself as the voice of tolerance? Sorry, but it doesn’t work that way. Again, I say, good riddance to you. We’re better off without your ilk. As Jesus taught, “Give not that which is holy to dogs; neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest perhaps they trample them under their feet, and turning upon you, they tear you.”
Three other words you won't find in Scripture: Bible, Incarnation and Trinity.
No. Where did you hear that? Jesus advised His apostles to "shake the dust from their feet" if they encountered communities hostile toward the Gospel. Schismatics and heretics fit that bill since they reject Christ's prayer for unity and His giving of the keys to the Kingdom to Peter. St. Paul also recommended that disciples not associate with people who live unashamedly sinful lives.
So I'm not sure where this "tolerance for all" comes in, unless you're referring to tolerance towards people of other religions who have not yet heard the Gospel. I'm called to tolerate a Shiite Muslim who's only spiritual knowledge comes from the Koran and reject the baptized Catholic who throws away the incredible gift God has given him in the Holy Eucharist because of some snit or lifestyle choice that's incompatible with moral teaching.
Never once did I make a deragoatory comment towards you or Catholics. A lot of my family is Catholic. I simply had issues with the church being too domineering and interefering too much in everyday life and trying to control the government. I have the same posistion on the church as I do towards the government, which is libertarian. I think faith is important, yet personal. Faith is between ourselves and God. I personally do not believe in middle men clergy telling me what I can and can’t do and that is God’s will. God, Jesus, or the Bible for that matter never make mention of this.
If people prefer this than thats ok I respect their viewpoint. I just personally don’t agree with it.
A previous poster probably best described your attitude.
I agree that you would expect him to say such things after his conversion. But a little curiosity might be in order as to why he converted. He did so at great cost to his very successful career—it destroyed it, as he knew it would. And of course he lost most of his friends. He had to start his life over again, which he did with both fear and joy. What did he discover that was so compelling?
But as a current seminary student, who has done a little informal research on early church history
Godspeed in that, and may it lead to closer to Him, by the path He decides.
I do recommend you check out a few titles by Scott Hahn, a gifted orator who was once a firebrand anti-Catholic evangelical, although personally quite mild-mannered. I met him on a Catholic retreat, when he thinking about converting. He soon did.
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