Posted on 06/23/2007 1:28:02 PM PDT by Extremely Extreme Extremist
(AP) SALT LAKE CITY -- Mitt Romney said Saturday that criticism of his Mormon religion by rival GOP presidential campaigns is happening too frequently.
“Clearly, any derogatory comments about anyone’s faith—those comments are troubling. The fact they keep on coming up is even more troubling,” Romney said during a fundraising trip in the home state of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
The Mormon church is one of the fastest-growing religions and claims about 12.5 million members worldwide. But many evangelical Christians in crucial primary states such as Iowa and South Carolina consider the faith a cult.
Romney’s remarks follow an apology from GOP rival John McCain’s campaign for comments about the Mormon church allegedly made this year by a volunteer.
Also recently, Republican presidential hopeful, Sen. Sam Brownback of Kansas, issued a similar apology for a campaign worker’s e-mail to Iowa Republican leaders that was an apparent attempt to draw unfavorable scrutiny of Romney’s religion. Former New York City mayor Rudy Giuliani apologized after the New York Sun noted that a campaign aide had forwarded to a blogger a story about unofficial Mormon lore. Legend has it that a Mormon would save the Constitution, the story said. The campaign aide passed the story along with a note: “Thought you’d find this interesting.”
Romney said in a large presidential race there always will be some volunteers or workers who cannot be controlled. But he said the difference between derogatory comments that originated from the McCain campaign and others is that the Arizona senator has not personally apologized to him.
“In the case of Senator Brownback and Mayor Giuliani ... they called immediately. They each spoke with me personally. I don’t have any issue with that at all,” Romney said.
He said McCain “can do whatever he feels is the right thing. There’s no need for me to suggest how people respond to things that go on in the campaign.”
Tucker Bounds, a McCain campaign spokesman, said the McCain campaign has already apologized.
“It’s a very sincere apology. There is absolutely no place for those type of comments in our campaign,” he said.
Romney, a former governor of Massachusetts, said he had not spoken with McCain since the last presidential debate, on June 5.
Romney used a fundraiser hosted by Utah Jazz owner Larry Miller to criticize the McCain-Feingold campaign finance law. It banned unregulated, unlimited contributions from corporations, unions and wealthy individuals to national political parties and federal candidates.
“The bill ought to be repealed,” he said. “It’s been the wrong course for American campaigns.”
Romney said he favors unlimited donations as long as they are immediately disclosed on the Internet.
Romney was attending fundraisers in Salt Lake City and in Logan on Saturday.
> Faith is greater than deeds.
Oh good. Now we get to quote Holy Writ at each other.
Faith without works is dead. If you don’t like that, take it up with The Boss, and ask him to chew out St James, who obviously has it all wrong.
James 2:
14 What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him?
15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food.
16 If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it?
17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.
18 But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.
19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
20 You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless[d]?
21 Was not our ancestor Abraham considered righteous for what he did when he offered his son Isaac on the altar?
22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.
23 And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend.
24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction?
26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
~”...a prophecy that at least in part has been repeated by a number of general authorities/LDS prophets.”~
You’re mixing up two different things. It’s easy to do, because some of the verbiage is different. There are many authorities that have said that one day the Constitution of this country will be hanging by a thread, and that, if it is to be saved, it will be through the support of the LDS Church. Sounds like good citizenship to me.
This is -NOT- the so-called “White Horse Prophecy.”
The “White Horse Prophecy” essentially says that Mormons will take over the US government. It is false. It is poppycock. It is also derived from a -very- dubious document, then twisted further when doing so matches the given agenda.
He spoke in God’s name. I know you don’t accept that, but I do, so you’re unlikely to convince me on the issue. When God says “a few,” I don’t hold my breath.
~”I used to date a RLDS when I was a much younger man”~
Goodness, how’d you come to know an RLDS girl in Australia? They’re tough to find here!
Sorry, that would be “Community of Christ” now.
~”...because some of the verbiage is different.”~
Rather, because some of the verbiage is the same.
What do you make of the fellow that “God” said was going to go on a mission in the spring who died before spring? What do you do with that?
What about the absolute lack of evidence of Jews in the new world when your scriptures say they were here for over 600 years?
What about the proven lies by Joseph Smith about polygamy? Why do you put your faith in a known liar?
Christ did not lie. Not once. Sinless. He died for our sins. He, and only he, judges the living and the dead, and salvation is solely through faith in Christ. It says so in the Bible.
There is no marriage in heaven. It says so in the Bible. Christ said this. This contradicts your beliefs, yet you claim to believe in the Bible. Your faith is opposed to reason. You cannot believe in the Bible, yet also believe in doctrines that contradict the Bible.
I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments. And the Bible supports your opinion that actions/conduct are determinative of a person’s character.
Thus, it is stated in James 2:17-24:
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
> Goodness, how’d you come to know an RLDS girl in Australia? They’re tough to find here!
That’s easy! I lived in Canada back then...
Even so the RLDS were fairly thin on the ground. She was a lovely girl, lots of fun to be around, a good friend and a jolly companion on many great adventures... and very, very proper and moral, refreshingly so.
(quite pretty, too.)
In a time and place where morals were fast-and-loose, it was unusual to meet a girl like her. We did not kiss on our first date. In fact, we never kissed for the entire time that I knew her: our relationship was way beyond Platonic but never physical in the carnal sense. Truly remarkable.
She will have made some lucky RLDS a very fine wife. (I wouldn’t convert, for reasons given in previous post...)
I show you Christ Himself, (John 3), and you wish to talk about James?
Faith - vs- Deeds, I tell you that St. Paul was a jerk. Great in faith, great in deeds, some of them most screwed up.
How's that in your debate?
Romans 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus
Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
I wonder how many of these verses the Mormonism Apologists would say are translated correctly? I think I'll bring in the big gun from Romans ...*
“And yet, with “thousands of sources of truth,” you present the Parowan Prophet as your source. Here’s a picture of the man:”
You guys are sooooo desperate that now we will have two years of “FastCoyote is a believer in the Parowan man”. I grabbed a single post that seemed to encapsulate some of the roots of the Whithorse Prophecy and now instead of addressing those salient points, we will be lead down the typical rabbithole of disception.
Here is the root question: will the Whithorse Prophecy come to play in the current election. EVEN if the Parowan Prophet is a loon, the answer is still yes. IN FACT, if he is a loon, IT FURTHER proves my point that we are in for 9.5 years of discussion of the bizarre if Romney is the nominee. But have at it, you have nothing else in your bag but spin.
[Religion is NOT a reliable gauge of a man’s Character.
Conduct is.]
But, conduct IS related to one’s religion. For eample, Muslims cut off infidel heads because of religious conviction.
You are caught in circular reasoning without even knowing it.
~”Beyond that, Romney has a Mormon fundraising committee run through BYU and directed by one of the 12.”~
[I highly doubt that, particularly the “12” part. Do you have documentation?]
It does not pay to doubt FastCoyote, you should know that by now tantiboth. Of course I have a citation. This is to the Boston Globe, but it is a rewrite of one from the Salt Lake Tribune (I lost that link :(
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2006/10/19/romney_camp_consulted_with_mormon_leaders/
> But, conduct IS related to one’s religion.
And for those with no religion — like my Athiest friend? Their ethical conduct is merely random, and not based on a higher sense of purpose? Rubbish. You have drawn a causal relationship where none exists. A fatal mistake.
> For eample, Muslims cut off infidel heads because of religious conviction.
No, a few psychopaths who subscribe to the muslim faith cut off heads to advance their sick aims. Again you have assumed causation (Muslim = Head Chopper) where no causation exists. A fatal mistake.
> You are caught in circular reasoning without even knowing it.
No, in fact you are caught arguing a logical fallacy.
Close, but no cigar.
Thanks for playing.
Romans 8:1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. [TD Jakes preached a very powerful sermon on this very topic recently! He illustrated with 'traveling baggage' the bags of pride, and sin, and responsibilities, etc. that folks tote around living in the flesh when they could drop it all and live in the Spirit. Christian living then becomes WORSHIP!... Worship, not striving for self righteousness to bring before God in a fleshly effort to be justified when He has already justified us by FAITH. His Faith, and our trusting in His Work.]
5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. [To understand how Mormonism ’minds the works of flesh' rather than the fruit of His Spirit, see also 1st Cor 2:14, Jude 19 ]
6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. [Striving onward resisting the 'do nots' anchors us down to the flesh and resisting the lusts thereof ... and that doesn't mean resisting porn as much as it means silly things like prohibition against drinking coffee isn't corrupting the spirit, but it certainly focuses one on the wrong stuff which leads to pride in self for resisting.]
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. [Works done by man’s effort to please God are the flesh trying to justify self and are as filthy rags next to the Righteousness of Christ.]
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. [Whose righteousness? Whose faith? Jesus! By His faith in His shed blood are we seen righteous before God, never by our works. Abraham believed God and it was counted for him righteousness ... trust in His blood activates HIS FAITH and His trustworthiness counts for us righteousness! Never by our works.]
[~”Not the group of nepotistic embezzlers I know.”~
Have you reported them to the authorities yet? It has been over two months now.]
Well, there’s more than one, from a few separate dealings. The one you are referring to has to be turned in second hand through a lawyer (to protect the innocent - that would be me).
If you don’t do large business deals, you won’t understand that these issues aren’t handled in a straightforward manner, you just don’t call up a beat cop and make a charge. But I guarantee the Temple Mormon is going down. I can’t get the university accountant, though I tried. The guy at the airport is too big for me, but there have been a series of investigations. I did a lot to help take Dario Herrera down. Still working on Harry Reid, that’s a tough Mormon to crack.
So, yeah, I know a bunch of Mormon crooks, no doubt about it.
“FastCoyote knows this from previous discussions, but continues to spread the falsehood. An example of why such things are beginning to wear thin on me.”
You guys slip and slide out of everything through “new revelations”. As soon as the heat gets too hot, there is a revelation that “oh, that’s not what the prophets Really meant”. The problem isn’t that our side quotes out of context, the problem is that Mormonism has no context, it is a continuing shell game as fake as a three dollar bill.
“For eample, Muslims cut off infidel heads because of religious conviction.”
[No, a few psychopaths who subscribe to the muslim faith cut off heads to advance their sick aims. Again you have assumed causation (Muslim = Head Chopper) where no causation exists. A fatal mistake.]
I will pay you $10,000 plus a plane ticket to Baghdad to prove you are right. All you have to do is live out in the open for 1 month in Baquoba with no weaponry and read a Bible. If your head is chopped off by a Christian during that time, you will get the $10,000 to keep because you will have proved that religion makes no difference.
I’m willing to do this just for the shear entertainment value.
~”What do you make of the fellow that “God” said was going to go on a mission in the spring who died before spring?”~
I don’t know. God’s ways are higher than mine. Perhaps He wanted to test the man’s willingness to obey.
~”What about the absolute lack of evidence of Jews in the new world when your scriptures say they were here for over 600 years?”~
I assume you’re referring to genetic evidence. The evidence that exists is inconclusive - you act as if such evidence is dispositive. Since the Jews and the descendants of Joseph only had one ancestor, and since the blood of the Lamanites may well have been mingled with other peoples over time, this isn’t particularly distressing to me - certainly not sufficiently so to countermand the testimony to me by the Holy Ghost of the truth of the Book of Mormon. Of course, you ignore many other bits of archaeological evidence that shows BoM concepts, as well as Jewish heritage. That’s fine, but let’s be consistent, shall we?
~”What about the proven lies by Joseph Smith about polygamy?”~
You will not find statements by Joseph Smith that can be objectively proven as lies. I’m sure you’ll come back at me with all sorts of quotes to try and bolster your point. Feel free; I’ll have a great ol’ time telling you why your sources are full of baloney.
~”Christ did not lie. Not once. Sinless. He died for our sins. He, and only he, judges the living and the dead, and salvation is solely through faith in Christ. It says so in the Bible.”~
Excellent! We agree! So... what was the problem again?
~”There is no marriage in heaven.”~
None are contracted in heaven, just as, say, baptism doesn’t happen in heaven - which is why we have to get it done here. But then, what God joins will not be put asunder. I would assume that includes a marriage sanctioned by God, wouldn’t you? If so, then such marriages would endure eternally.
~”Your faith is opposed to reason.”~
Pot, meet Kettle. Isn’t that kind of the point of faith? Knowledge only comes -after- faith is tested. At some point, you must abandon the reason of man and put your trust in God. After that, the reason becomes clear.
Tell you what. Study Mormonism for two decades, like I have, get all the pieces together, understand the full context of everything we preach, pray about it all to gain a confirmation of its truth, enact the principles and doctrines in your life, experience the glimpses of joy and personal fulfillment that are life-altering, engage in experiences as intimately spiritual as acting as God’s voice in the healing of your own mother, then come back and tell me that my faith is opposed to reason. See ya’ in 20.
~”You cannot believe in the Bible, yet also believe in doctrines that contradict the Bible.”~
That’s true; of course, the logical fallacy you employ here is that the Bible actually says what you think it says. Why are Orthodox Christians so put out when Mormons have an equally valid, albeit different, interpretation of a given verse? Isn’t that generally what caused rifts in the Orthodox denominations themselves in the first place?
You and I will never agree on these points. But, then, I don’t go around with the intent of convincing you that you are wrong, either. Of course, I don’t have to. God is pretty good at that Himself, for those who are willing to let Him teach them.
Another great example is where Christ derided the Pharisees for their hypocrisy.
They believed their shows of piety alone would save them, even though they were sufficiently evil at the core to crucify their own Savior.
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