Romney: Attacks On Mormon Religion Troubling

CBS 4 MIAMI ^ | 23 JUNE 2007 | AP

[Elsie]

They certainly believe that.

 

Then they'd believe what He said; right?

 

 John 14:6
   Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

 

John 14:15
   "If you love me, you will obey what I command.

 

John 14:24
  He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

 

 

 

When your coach, your trainer, your teacher tells you to do EXACTLY what He has shown you, then you do well, Grasshopper.

 

When you want to do things YOUR way - add or subtract to what He has shown and said; can it really be said you are following His instructions?

[Elsie]

If Israel could and would commit genocide in Gaza, Israel would be at peace right now.

Yup; and this is where and why it's like it is today...

---

Exodus 33:1-3
 1.  Then the LORD said to Moses, "Leave this place, you and the people you brought up out of Egypt, and go up to the land I promised on oath to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, saying, `I will give it to your descendants.'
 2.  I will send an angel before you and drive out the Canaanites, Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites.
 3.  Go up to the land flowing with milk and honey. But I will not go with you, because you are a stiff-necked people and I might destroy you on the way."

 

 Joshua 3:9-11
  9.  Joshua said to the Israelites, "Come here and listen to the words of the LORD your God.
 10.  This is how you will know that the living God is among you and that he will certainly drive out before you the Canaanites, Hittites, Hivites, Perizzites, Girgashites, Amorites and Jebusites.
 11.  See, the ark of the covenant of the Lord of all the earth will go into the Jordan ahead of you.

 

Joshua 9

 1.  Now when all the kings west of the Jordan heard about these things--those in the hill country, in the western foothills, and along the entire coast of the Great Sea  as far as Lebanon (the kings of the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites)--
 2.  they came together to make war against Joshua and Israel.
 3.  However, when the people of Gibeon heard what Joshua had done to Jericho and Ai,
 4.  they resorted to a ruse: They went as a delegation whose donkeys were loaded  with worn-out sacks and old wineskins, cracked and mended.
 5.  The men put worn and patched sandals on their feet and wore old clothes. All the bread of their food supply was dry and moldy.
 6.  Then they went to Joshua in the camp at Gilgal and said to him and the men of Israel, "We have come from a distant country; make a treaty with us."
 7.  The men of Israel said to the Hivites, "But perhaps you live near us. How then can we make a treaty with you?"
 8.  "We are your servants," they said to Joshua.   But Joshua asked, "Who are you and where do you come from?" 
 9.  They answered: "Your servants have come from a very distant country because of the fame of the LORD your God. For we have heard reports of him: all that he did in Egypt,
 10.  and all that he did to the two kings of the Amorites east of the Jordan--Sihon king of Heshbon, and Og king of Bashan, who reigned in Ashtaroth.
 11.  And our elders and all those living in our country said to us, `Take provisions for your journey; go and meet them and say to them, "We are your servants; make a treaty with us." '
 12.  This bread of ours was warm when we packed it at home on the day we left to come to you. But now see how dry and moldy it is.
 13.  And these wineskins that we filled were new, but see how cracked they are. And our clothes and sandals are worn out by the very long journey."
 14.  The men of Israel sampled their provisions but did not inquire of the LORD.
 15.  Then Joshua made a treaty of peace with them to let them live, and the leaders of the assembly ratified it by oath.
 16.  Three days after they made the treaty with the Gibeonites, the Israelites heard that they were neighbors, living near them.
 17.  So the Israelites set out and on the third day came to their cities: Gibeon, Kephirah, Beeroth and Kiriath Jearim.
 18.  But the Israelites did not attack them, because the leaders of the assembly had sworn an oath to them by the LORD, the God of Israel.   The whole assembly grumbled against the leaders,
 19.  but all the leaders answered, "We have given them our oath by the LORD, the God of Israel, and we cannot touch them now.
 20.  This is what we will do to them: We will let them live, so that wrath will not fall on us for breaking the oath we swore to them."
 21.  They continued, "Let them live, but let them be woodcutters and water carriers for the entire community." So the leaders' promise to them was kept.
 22.  Then Joshua summoned the Gibeonites and said, "Why did you deceive us by saying, `We live a long way from you,' while actually you live near us?
 23.  You are now under a curse: You will never cease to serve as woodcutters and water carriers for the house of my God."
 24.  They answered Joshua, "Your servants were clearly told how the LORD your God had commanded his servant Moses to give you the whole land and to wipe out all its inhabitants from before you. So we feared for our lives because of you, and that is why we did this.
 25.  We are now in your hands. Do to us whatever seems good and right to you."
 26.  So Joshua saved them from the Israelites, and they did not kill them.
 27.  That day he made the Gibeonites woodcutters and water carriers for the community and for the altar of the LORD at the place the LORD would choose. And that is what they are to this day.

[Elsie]

Your argument is not persuasive.

So?

I laid out the data. Each one reading it gets to make up their own mind.

"We report: you decide."

[Elsie]

Your argument is not persuasive.

So?

I laid out the data. Each one reading it gets to make up their own mind.

"We report: you decide."

[Elsie]

Colorcountry has real insight in knowing from the inside out what the falsehoods are...

Hummph!

I'm just waiting for all that bitternesss and hate to spill out, so she can write a BOOK and make some MONEY attacking us poor, defenseless Mormons; just like them OTHER detracters; the Tanners!!!

--MormonDude

[Elsie]

My purpose is to attack the usual gang of Mormon hating bigots of which you are a preeminent member.

I'm UNusual in that I don't hate.

[LeGrande]

The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle is a 'fable' then, is it?

The difference between the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle and a fable is that it has been experimentally verified and the experiments are repeatable. Fables and Miracles have the unfortunate quality of having the exact same quality and veracity as rumors.

Our proof is the Bible. You should see a group of us Wacko Fundamentalist bickering the finer points of Scripture. We can be just as exacting as you guys.
I've seen heated debates over a comma. Should it be there, one word over or altogether absent?

Yes, trying to make sense out of a rumor is hard isn't it?

That's a bit like you guys arguing over which String Theory is correct, or if you should just draw a big circle around them all and call it a day.

Funny you should mention String Theory. It has no experimental evidence supporting it and the 'theory' in the name is a misnomer and all the researchers know this. No one says that String theory has been demonstrated, it is simply a mathematical tool that they are trying to use to investigate a hypothesis.

This is the primary difference between Science and Religion. Experimental evidence can prove a hypothesis wrong and when that happens the hypothesis is discarded. Theories also have great predictive power that has been verified countless times.

Religion can't be proven wrong, because it is open to any interpretation. I showed that rationally the Ark couldn't have happened and the best response I got was that the Ark was a 'Miracle' and anything is possible with a 'Miracle'. The same goes with Religions predictive power. Christ said that this generation shall not pass away before I shall return again. Religion just keeps changing the definition of 'generation'. Religions specific predictive ability is non existent, that is why you see so few 'Prophets' today.

[LeGrande]

When you want to do things YOUR way - add or subtract to what He has shown and said; can it really be said you are following His instructions?

Your logic is impeccable. I don't know what your point is though?

[LeGrande]

I'm UNusual in that I don't hate.

You do seem to be UNusual in that regard :) I don't sense the usual bitterness and animosity in you. In fact you seem to be having fun. Keep up the good work : )

[Enosh]

"experimentally verified and the experiments are repeatable."

And there have been many archaeological finds which uphold the Bible.

"... sense out of a rumor is hard isn't it?"

The Bible is a 'rumor', okay. Your loss.

"Religion can't be proven wrong"

Several books were stripped from the Bible because they contradicted it. In other words, they were proven wrong.

(The BoM also fits this bill nicely.)

"keeps changing the definition of 'generation'."

Link

Multiple possible translations from Greek to English.

[sandude]

This is the primary difference between Science and Religion.

Both enterprises should be engaged in the search for truth. I believe that God wants us to do all we can to find Him. Prayerful study of the scriptures is not the only way we can do that. Studying the world that we live in is another avenue to gain understanding of God and His works. Truth is truth, regardless of where we find it.

The problem often lies in deciding that something that seems true, must be true. The earth centered universe comes to mind. It took century's after Galileo's work for the church to back away from it's incorrect view. I believe that we are in a similar situation today with one big difference. It is the scientists who are doggedly hanging onto a failing theory. That failing theory was proposed by Georges Lemaître, a Catholic Priest. He called it his 'hypothesis of the primeval atom' but it is commonly known today as the Big Bang. His work was based on Einsteins theories that made gravity king. The problem is that there is more and more observational evidence that this notion is flawed. Anyone in the scientific community that questions these ideas are marginalized and thrown into the category of dissident scientists. Albert Einstein is the main stream cosmologists 'God' and questioning his work is unthinkable. Einstein himself was uncomfortable with his work and spent the latter years of his life trying to come up with a more universal theory to replace General and Special Relativity.

Experimental evidence can prove a hypothesis wrong and when that happens the hypothesis is discarded. Theories also have great predictive power that has been verified countless times.

This is exactly how I felt up until about a year ago. I was reading an article on the Internet trumpeting that proof of dark matter had been found. One of the commenter's to this article said that the Plasma Cosmologists would have a different view of this discovery. I was intrigued and I started to look into this area of science that I knew little about. It has been a real eye opener.

I now know that there is a lot of observational evidence that clearly calls into question the Big Bang. If you're not aware of Halton Arp's work, that would be a good place to start. He is an astronomer, not a plasma guy. He has been called the modern day Galileo. Some of the people who recognize him as such are Nobel Prize winners. His work has dealt with observations that call into question the idea that red shift is the result of recessional velocity. His discoveries have not been effectively refuted, they have been buried because they bring into question the popular model of our universe. He was told to change his line of research or he would lose his observation time at Mt. Palomar. He refused and had to move to Germany to continue his work.

By the way, these dissident scientists are not creationists or intelligent design guys. They are not pushing a theological agenda. They are simply saying that the observations that we are getting from our increasingly sophisticated satellites and telescopes are calling into question many of the theories that are passed off as "beyond questioning". It's interesting reading.

I should add a disclaimer. Not all dissident scientists follow productive paths. Some are rather nutty. The ones that back up their ideas using good observational data are who we need to give ear to. To many of them are brushed aside because they threaten the limited research dollars that are available. The sad thing is that the tax payers have spent billions of dollars on projects of little merit. The money spent to develop nuclear fusion power reactors is a great example of waste. They have literally nothing to show for the years of research. The scientists on the outside have a good idea as to why the fusion scientists are unsuccessful and the data being gathered by our solar satellites back their claims. If more people really knew what was going on there would be some heads rolling. It's all about turf.

[LeGrande]

Several books were stripped from the Bible because they contradicted it. In other words, they were proven wrong.

How were they proven wrong? Are there any other books in the Bible that might be wrong? Should the Song Of Solomon be in the Bible?

And there have been many archaeological finds which uphold the Bible.

If I write a story about someone in New York and if two thousand years from now archaeologists prove that New York existed, does that prove that my story is true? How does an archaeological find prove the truth of the Bible stories? Does lack of evidence disprove the Bible?

I think that it all boils down to what verifiable predictions has the Bible made, that have come true? Verifiable predictions are the gold standard in science today.

[LeGrande]

The problem often lies in deciding that something that seems true, must be true. The earth centered universe comes to mind. It took century's after Galileo's work for the church to back away from it's incorrect view. I believe that we are in a similar situation today with one big difference. It is the scientists who are doggedly hanging onto a failing theory. That failing theory was proposed by Georges Lemaître, a Catholic Priest. He called it his 'hypothesis of the primeval atom' but it is commonly known today as the Big Bang. His work was based on Einsteins theories that made gravity king. The problem is that there is more and more observational evidence that this notion is flawed. Anyone in the scientific community that questions these ideas are marginalized and thrown into the category of dissident scientists. Albert Einstein is the main stream cosmologists 'God' and questioning his work is unthinkable. Einstein himself was uncomfortable with his work and spent the latter years of his life trying to come up with a more universal theory to replace General and Special Relativity.

The big bang is based on the fact that the entire universe is expanding and accelerating too. We do not have a good theory to account for that fact. Einstein had added a constant to his equations to create a steady state universe. When it was discovered that the universe was expanding he called the constant his greatest blunder.

Simply by reversing the time, scientist came to the inescapable conclusion that the universe was much smaller in the past, hence the big bang. By the way, Hawkings is speculating that there may have been a series of big bangs. It is interesting that on this point Religion and Science seemed to agree. If science disproves the Big Bang how does Religion falsify it?

I now know that there is a lot of observational evidence that clearly calls into question the Big Bang. If you're not aware of Halton Arp's work, that would be a good place to start.

There is a lot going on that Scientists don't have a clue about, dark energy, dark matter, etc. When good scientific evidence is presented it is generally amazing how fast the scientific community embraces the new evidence (global warming and junk science excepted). If the Hubble would have provided clear support for Halton Arps work I am sure that astronomists would have supported it. It didn't.

The money spent to develop nuclear fusion power reactors is a great example of waste. They have literally nothing to show for the years of research. The scientists on the outside have a good idea as to why the fusion scientists are unsuccessful and the data being gathered by our solar satellites back their claims. If more people really knew what was going on there would be some heads rolling. It's all about turf.

Now you are getting into politics and science. Global warming is actually a better example than fusion and I couldn't agree with you more : )

[Enosh]

"Should the Song Of Solomon be in the Bible?"

Sure, everyone likes to talk about boobs.

"If I write a story about someone in New York and if two thousand years from now..."

If you write a story about Mayor Bloomberg and someone later discovers his signet ring, that would lend legitimacy to your account.

"verifiable predictions has the Bible made, that have come true?"

Egypt? Ancient Israel? Babylon? Diaspora? Rome? Jesus? Modern Israel? Hello!?

[LeGrande]

Should the Song Of Solomon be in the Bible?

Sure, everyone likes to talk about boobs.

That's funny but that doesn't answer my question. You stated that books have been removed from the Bible because they weren't true. How was their veracity determined?

If you write a story about Mayor Bloomberg and someone later discovers his signet ring, that would lend legitimacy to your account.

Only to verify his existence. I don't see how it would support my story at all.

verifiable predictions has the Bible made, that have come true?

Egypt? Ancient Israel? Babylon? Diaspora? Rome? Jesus? Modern Israel? Hello!

I guess I need to be more specific :) Lets take an easy one. You mentioned Jesus, if the Bible clearly predicted Jesus why aren't the Jews Christians? He was their Messiah wasn't he? What is the specific scripture that unambiguously foretold of the coming of Jesus.

[Enosh]

"...but that doesn't answer my question."

I did answer that, because they contradicted the Bible, or core elements thereof.

Here are some of them, they can be entertaining. -> Link

"I don't see how it would support my story at all."

If your story contained an account of how Boomberg's predecessor was a cross-dressing RINO, it would be hard to believe. Then, of course, the archaeologist finds a picture of Rudy.

"He was their Messiah wasn't he?"

Yes, and I will not let you drag me into a fight with the Jews over this, so quit asking me why they aren't Christians.

"What is the specific scripture that unambiguously foretold of the coming of Jesus."

There are many, but my favorite is Isaiah 9:1-7.

[LeGrande]

Thank you for the link. I had no idea that there were so many 'writings' that could have been included in the Bible. I thought you had been talking about the extra books the Catholics include.

If your story contained an account of how Boomberg's predecessor was a cross-dressing RINO, it would be hard to believe. Then, of course, the archaeologist finds a picture of Rudy.

LOL Sometimes truth can be stranger than fiction.

I looked up your scripture that is supposed to be an unambiguous prophecy of Christ.

6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this.

I can certainly see why the Jews didn't think that Jesus fulfilled that prophecy. Especially the part, "from that time on and forever". Also if I recall correctly there were lots and lots of 'Christs' at the time all claiming to be God.

I was honestly hoping for a little clearer Prophecy, not one that is open to a ton of misinterpretation.

[greyfoxx39]

FIP magic decoder ring placemarker!

[sandude]

The big bang is based on the fact that the entire universe is expanding and accelerating too.

That expansion and acceleration are based solely on the idea that redshift always represents recessional velocity. Halton Arp's observations call that premise into question. Our entire view of the universe depends on the observed redshift being tied to the Doppler effect. All of the distances, energy levels, and accelerations are based on this notion. It is a huge deal to have the very lynch pin of our cosmological understanding come into question. Here are a few interesting links on the subject.

Having faith in Edwin Hubble

The Picture that Wont Go Away

Thirty Years Later

Einstein had added a constant to his equations to create a steady state universe. When it was discovered that the universe was expanding he called the constant his greatest blunder.

Is it really expanding? It may be expanding but not in the way the Big Bang theory describes. The implications of Arps observations is that quasars are ejected from galaxies and as they age their redshift decreases in quantized steps. At each discrete step the quasars mass increases as it's redshift decreases until they eventually become galaxies capable of ejecting new quasars. I know this sounds radical and they are not my ideas but I find this very interesting. The observed phenomenon that the redshift of quasars and galaxies change in discreet quantized steps coupled with the statistical placement of quasars next to active galaxies and that the quasars seem to be aligned along either side of the spin axis of the galaxy led to these ideas. Please remember that these ideas are attempts to explain observation. The main stream cosmologists are mostly mathematicians and seem to show little interest in observations, especially observations that bring into question their elegant formulations.

Redshift Rosetta Stone

Halton Arps Website

An Open Letter to the Scientific Community

It is interesting that on this point Religion and Science seemed to agree. If science disproves the Big Bang how does Religion falsify it?

I'm not sure that I agree with the idea that Religion and Science are in agreement on this. At least two Popes have made statements in support for the Big Bang because the theory supports the idea of creation Ex-Nihilo. Mormons do not support that idea but rather believe that the Universe is eternal with no beginning or end. Perhaps that gives me a bias in favor of the Big Bang bashers. I do try to always keep an open mind. As I stated before, truth is truth regardless of where you find it.

When good scientific evidence is presented it is generally amazing how fast the scientific community embraces the new evidence (global warming and junk science excepted). If the Hubble would have provided clear support for Halton Arps work I am sure that astronomists would have supported it. It didn't.

Historically, the scientific community is very slow to accept revolutionary ideas. I would caution you to not be to quick to shuffle this into the junk science bin. I've been looking into it for over a year and have found no substantive refutation by the main streamers. Contrary to your assertion the Hubble found the same things Arp did. When NASA published a photo of one of Arps peculiar galaxy's they used a low resolution picture that didn't show the connection between the galaxy and the quasar. The dissidents got a hold of a high resolution copy of the same photo and published it which clearly showed the bridge. If you'd like a link to that story let me know and I'll dig it up.

I believe that the Big Bang is a house of cards that is being held up by the old guard scientists. These guys control where the research money goes and anyone doing research questioning the status quo is left out in the cold. History repeats itself. This same situation has occurred over and over again in the world of science. A revolution is afoot but it is difficult to say how long it will be before the world is rocked with the shocking news that the Big Bang was a bust.

[MHGinTN]

Secret Flying Inman decoder ring placemarker