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To: RobbyS
You haven’t a clur about how a conquered people feel about their conquerors.

Au contraire, perfido.

“A great civilization is not conquered from without
until it has destroyed itself from within.”
— Will Durant

The Roman Empire? Imperial Poland? Nazi Germany? An American civilization consumed by liberal values contrary to the national interest, political posturing to gain short-term advantage, a corrupt and hopelessly biased press, and perpetual readiness to surrender to terrorists abroad and illegal immigrants at home?

Take 17th Century Poland as an example. Polonians had conquered nearby tribes: Lenczanians, Mazurs, Kuyavtans, Jadzwings, Chrobatians (Post #81). Now, proud, feudal, independent, so suspicious of central authority that only two of The Crown’s kings were native Poles: one a discarded lover of a Russian empress and the other John Sobieski, the national hero who held off the Turks at the gates of Vienna. Polish and Lithuanian landed aristocracy controlled White Russian and Ukrainian peasants. Corruption, bribery and palace intrigue produced a power vacuum in which the Poles had few friends and plenty of ambitious neighbors eager to protect their blood brothers. Though some Polish noblemen were accomplished and widely traveled, perhaps owing to a dearth of literature in the Polish language with the arts centered on folk productions, many became impoverished, ill-educated and unruly... or, in other words, ripe for partition. Meanwhile, Germans inhabited East Prussia, Pomerania and the larger towns and resisted assimilation.

Fast forward to the 1919-1920 Peace Conferences of WWI, where the seeds of resentment were planted in the German populace. Germany lost all African and Pacific Ocean colonies, but more significantly, European territories to France (Alsace-Lorraine—87% German, Saar Basin temporarily—nearly 100% German), Denmark (by League of Nations plebiscite), Belgium, Czechoslovakia, Lithuania and by far the largest chunk—17,806 square miles to Poland that contained 12% of her population. That caused many Germans to be willing to listen to whoever promised relief--probably not unlike the U.S. populace if an international “peace” conference gave the American Southwest back to Mexico, presuming we still had some fight left. Part of the area seized was the Polish Corridor including Danzig--97% German and 3% Polish. (It was not by coincidence that WWII opened with a symbolic German attack on the Danzig post office. Many Poles even welcomed a Bolshevik defeat.) After WWI, Poles used abandoned ordinance to begin new expansions into Ukrainian, Lithuanian and German territories. Thus, we see Poles never missed an opportunity to try to subjugate others. (Polish News June’07 http://www.polishnews.com/text/polish_studies_newsletter/june_2007.html)

We can conclude that the Poles suffered mightily from the war, but most of them know that they brought misery upon themselves, as evidenced by past wrongs perpetrated. For instance, Auschwitz could not have operated efficiently without substantial Polish collaboration in promoting the Holocaust--and we’re not just talking about kids flashing death signs to captives on trains. Poles do not care to criticize their Soviet conquerors because there is no advantage to be gained—in votes or reparations money. In sum, as others have argued above, perceptions of justice and injustice depend on where the history clock is started. If we insist on continuing to fight the last war, the fight will never end as each side rages on. I'm impressed that your contribution to that rage has been considerable.

.

229 posted on 06/23/2007 1:55:04 PM PDT by OESY
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To: OESY

I am quite aware of the events you describe. I also know that the pre-war Polish regime was quasi-Fascist and —like the Czech regims, not kind to minorities. However, that is beside the point. We in the South enslaved millions of people and even went to war in order to preserve our system. BTAIM, we were invaded and finally over whelmed by large Union armies, which not only destroyed our economy (in 1870, NYState alone had a large GDP ; than the entire former confederacy) but left us for us under military government. In 1877, the North abandoned its effort to coerse the South and allwed state government to return to the hands of their white majorities. Not until the 1960s can it be said that the South recovered from the Civil War. </i>
I recite this history to remind you that an angry scar never heals and is a constant reminder of past injuries done. You have a point about the benefits of letting go. But it is silly to compare the evils done by the Poles with those done by the Germans or the Russians. They simply never had the power.


230 posted on 06/23/2007 2:13:45 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHOa)
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To: OESY

1919-1920 Peace Conferences of WWI, ... Germany lost all African and Pacific Ocean colonies, ...European territories to France ...Denmark ...Belgium, Czechoslovakia, Lithuania and by far the largest chunk—17,806 square miles to Poland that contained 12% of her population.


You must be smoking something... and it ain’t common sense.

Germans lost what WASN’T THEIRS in the first place. So much for your “analysis”.


231 posted on 06/23/2007 2:18:43 PM PDT by eleni121 (+ En Touto Nika! By this sign conquer! + Constantine the Great)
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