[You wrote: “Coincidence at best? Wow- there are literally many htousands of such requests that leave doctors stumped shaking hteir heads- call it what you like- most people do”]
Come on. Every amputee prays that his missing limb will grow back, but not a one has ever grown back. You know that as well as I do. Once in a while, someone who prays or is prayed for is going to have their cancer go into remission. It’s not a miracle when it happens. Bottom line is, if you get seriously ill, pray all you want, but there is no one listening.
[You wrote: “This isn’t true- God’s answer isn’t always “Yes, I’ll Grant you whatever you want whenever you ask for it- God’s answers sometimes are no, and although painful, there are many times when the no answer was the most wise answer- but it surely didn’t feel like it at the time.”]
You really have to contort logic to rationalize that God’s refusal to help you when help is needed is just part of his glorious “plan.” That’s the ultimate rationalization when bad things happen to good people: “It’s God’s will and who are we to question God’s will.” I have more logical answer: There is no one listening to prayers — you are talking to yourself, and if something good does happen, it isn’t because God “granted you one.”
One of the best indications of the fallibility of the Bible is that Jesus is quoted as saying you can obtain anything you want through prayer. You apparently disagree that Jesus said that. I suggest you look again in the Bible at the preposterous claims about prayer that are attributed to Jesus. Whatever you want, it’s yours, if you ask Jesus. Anything at all, according to Jesus. It’s been my experience that, in every football game, one team has always been forsaken.
==================
Please pardon me for jumping in here, but that is not at all what the bible says or teaches. The key phrase of the passage you refer to says "In My Name", which is the same as saying "for ME" or "in MY Will" or "for My purpose".
Praying for what Jesus wants is usually not a million dollars or a new caddy.
[Come on. Every amputee prays that his missing limb will grow back, but not a one has ever grown back. You know that as well as I do. Once in a while, someone who prays or is prayed for is going to have their cancer go into remission. It’s not a miracle when it happens. Bottom line is, if you get seriously ill, pray all you want, but there is no one listening.]
Gee- that age of direct intervention that includes supernatural miracles such as lost limbs reappearing is over in the church age? Whoda thunk it? When Christ was performing His supernatural miracles such as restoring sight, limbs raising the dead etc, He said to his Disciples that in effedct, they were fortunate because they got to witness these particular type miracles first hand and said that they were fortunate because the time was coming when it would be much much harder to bewlieve because these spectacular miracles were com9ing to an end for a short period- why? For God’s own purposes. And for things like cancer healing, which, while still spectacular, isn’t on par with restoring lost limbs supernaturally, healings of diseases while praying are much more common than your ‘once in awhile’ insinuation.
[Bottom line is, if you get seriously ill, pray all you want, but there is no one listening.]
And you knowq this how? Tell it to the thousands and thousands of folks who have experienced God’s intervention personally- it happens FAR more commonly than you are willing to give credit for
[You really have to contort logic to rationalize that God’s refusal to help you when help is needed is just part of his glorious “plan.” That’s the ultimate rationalization when bad things happen to good people: “It’s God’s will and who are we to question God’s will.”]
No sir I don’t have to contort anything. God’s blessings don’t hinge on our wants and desires. Far greater good comes from bad than you obviously fail to realize. Now pay attention because I’m abotu to teach you somethign about the spiritual warfare- the dire consequences of not accepting Christ, and the ills that come from demanding that our selfish desires be answered when we want every time.
I’m going to state soem absolute truths in setting this explanation up— This is going to be long, but please take the time to read it and digest it as it is very important to understanding God’s will for our lives. It’s going to be harsh, but it is the raw truth that we all know deep down but simply don’t wish to face- but it is crucial that WE ALL face it head on because it exposes OUR selfish desires that are key to our disbelief in what we KNOW to be the truth deep down. I’ll be capitalizing key words- so don’t interpret the caps s yelling or condemnation on you alone- I’m included myself as well because I too have my own selfishness in certain areas.
Satan is at complete war with both God and His people. Satan can do NOTHING without God’s permission. Illness is obviously bad. WE- WE- NOT God or anyone else, Brought illness into this life because of our SELFISH desires. WE ate the apple. WE had every blessing from God WE could possibly want, yet WE decided that WE wanted what WE wanted when WE wanted it. WE knew the consequences of our actions, yet WE decided WE knew better than God what was good for US.
Now, We knew life wasn’t going to be a bed of roses where our every whims and desires would be met and instant gratifications would be the norm of the day- but WE chose, in our rebellious, self glorifying manner, to disregards God’s perfect will for our lives.
Satan won round one- He won the skirmish, but I assure you He will NOT win the war.
With me so far? Now, Satan, as I said, needs permission from God to wreak His havoc on us, God’s creation, people that Satan can not stand. He hates us with all His being, with all His soul. He glories in our demise and agony. Nothing motivates Satan more than to cause each of God’s creation to fall away further and further from God. Satan would like nothing more than for every person to be so self absorbed, so wrapped up in their own selfish wants and sense of sefl-importance, that we would look at God with loathing in our hearts.
Ask yourself- What better way to get people to shake their fist in fury at God than to cause some unspeakable horror to befall us? Some evil so vile that we gnash our teeth at God in rabid seething blind rage filled fury?
This is important, so take note- Satan plays on our sense of self-importance. He knows us well, knows our weakness, and knows that we will not bow a knee to our very creator, the God who gave us life, if He, Satan, can do somethign that will infuriate our sense of justice. He causes bad things to happen to ‘good’ people just as you state, but I tell you the truth, these ‘good’ people you speak about, The ‘good’ people who Don’t accept God and, when faced with bad things, turn even more from God when things don’t go their way. These ‘good people’ while ‘good’ on the surface, have an evil sin nature that rejects the God who breathed very life into them in the first place.
Here’s where it gets harsh- These ‘good’ people that don’t accept God’s will, are weak- Satan knew they were weak, and He capitalized on their weakness to inflict evil and cause these people further reject God.
You might be asking right now “Why would God allow evil if God knew the people couldn’t take it and still accept Him?”
Simple- God is cutting through the bull venere and getting right to the heart of the matter, by exposing the person’s selfish nature that demands God be their vending machine whenever they command God to perform for them.
This last sentance cuts right to the heart of the matter- it cuts right through all the bull crap fakeness in our lives, and exposes us bluntly to the truth in our hearts that we keep hidden away- the skeletons in the closet so to speak- the dirty little secret that we hide from everyone- the secret that we keep that says that we will NOT accept God UNLESS God do as we demand and keep us healthy, problem free for our entire lives. We shake our fist in God’s face when bad things happen, and we strengthen our resolve to hate Him because we didn’t get exactly what we want whenever we wanted it in this life. (I know the objections that are comming to your mind right now- but bear with me, I’ll be addressing htem further down)
It takes a VERY strong person to, when faced with illness or evil, obey God and accept Him no matter what happens. Trial by fire you might call it. It weeds the weak from the strong. It weeds the pretenders (or what I liek to call ‘fair weather ‘good people’) from the folks who accept God for who He is without any stipulations placed on Him.
We are now getting into the very difficult to accept issue of God’s Soverienty, and this is where most people draw the line at accepting God, and where the true nature of people’s sense of pride and self importance gets exposed. And htis is precisely the issue that Satan exploits to it’s fullest to turn people away from God. He knows it assaults our sense of self grandeur, self importance like nothign esle can, and He exploits it precisely because He knows it will cause us to self-delude ourselves into thinking we don’t have that ugly skeleton in the closet called self-worship. The very self-worship that Adam had when he ate that apple! And here you thought eating that apple was just a benign act of no real importance. It was MUCH MUCH more than a simple act. Adam (and by proxy, all of us too, as we would have, and indeed do to this day, eaten the apple out of our sense of selfisness and independence from God), exposed the root of all sin by eating that apple- the root that we so cleaverly hide away from everyone by putting on heirs of ‘goodness’ for everyone to see and admire.
Satan has pulled off the greatest act of illusion that has ever been performed. He has deluded people into thinking they are good, that they don’t deserve bad thigns to happen to them, and He exploits this sense of self importance, self-goodness, and has managed to get a great many people to look at evil and shake their fist in God’s face declaring that injustice has been dealt undeservedly when bad things happen.
Do you see the twisted logic? The convoluted rationale that Satan has slyly pulled off here? SATAN has brought evil upon us, and HE is the one responsible for our sufferings, YET, HE is never the one blamed here. He so blinds the person to REALITY that HE manages to get people to set their jaws and declare that God is responsible for ‘letting it hapen.’ Here is the raw TRUTH of the matter though- WE- NOT God, are responsible for inviting evil into our lives. WE are the ones who eat the apple every single day. WE have an opportunity to receive countless blessings from God on HIS terms, not our own, but WE, WE decide that the road is too tough, and that it is easier to sit down, pouind our fists, and demand that everything go according to ur plans and that our sense of justice never be tested so as not to expose our innermost sin of denial of God’s Godness- God’s Soveriengty (sp?)- God’s absolute right to rule in our lives REGARDLESS of the present circumstances. When bad thigns happen- we foam at the mouth, call God all sorts of names, and IGNORE the fact that it is NOT God who brings the evil, NOR was it God who invited evil into our lives WILLINGLY, but rather it was US- WE who couldn’t stand the htought of obeying God.
WE demand Miracles on Demand- WE demand that God perform for us every minute of every day the way WE want Him to, and we self-piously declare that we will follow god IF- and ONLY IF, God perfomr to our liking. The first sign of trouble, and drop God like a hot potato, and run for hills sulking liek spoiled rotton brats.
We view everythign with such a narrow shortsightedness that thinks everythign revolves around us alone- if somethign bad happens to us, we simply don’t/won’t stop to think that it is NOT just us who are being sifted, but others around us too. We get all pissy and delude ourselves into thinking that we ‘don’t deserve’ what is happening hwen the reality of the matter is that WE invited evil into our lives ALL BY OURSELVES. And beleive me, Satan capitalizes on our weak- selfish sense of self importance- our sense that God has no right to expose our selfisness by allowing Satan to test us by FULLY exposing us and our inner demon so to speak.
Yuo won’t be finding this reality spoken in any of the multitudes of ‘self-help’ books because they all focus on- deceivingly focus on, our sense of self importance- they preach a message that we deserve to be pampered, we deserve to feel good, to have our every desires met. These books cater to our root evils. They know that there is a harsh reality that should be preached, one that puts the blame precisely where it needs to be placed, but they avoid it because the fact is, the root is too ugly to confront. We demand that either God comfort us at all times, or we’re goen in a heartbeat from Him.
Yes, bad things happen to ‘good’ people, but what Satan means for evil, God turns around for good. God uses the intended evil to cut throuygh the bull, to expose the ugly, and to cause people to face our most primitive selfishnesses and make a decision- Are we strong enough to love God DESPITE external circumstances? Or will we dig in our heels, get all pissy about the fact that we invited evil into our lives by our refusal to listen to God, and falsely accuse God of ‘causing’ discomfort in our lives?
It is tough watchign a loved one suffer, and you and I can and most likely will ‘feel’ abandoned by God, but our loved ones are NOT the only ones who are being affected by evil/ills- many many people are exposed to the situation, and they too are being brought face to face with their inner skeleton called pride. The doctors, the nurses, the relatives, firends, even strangers who are made aware of what is transpiring. All these people’s families and firends- their children, etc can all be affected by what one person is going through. We don’t concider that- all we can focus on is our own discomfort.
We think (And I think this may be one of your objections) “Why is such a young, innocent person goingthrough this evil when they don’t even have a say in the matter, and before they even get a chance to experience life?” The answer is one that will not sit well with you- God is both Sovereign, and all knowing. He knows whether the person being afflicted will eventually accept Him or not (A point needs to be raised here that young children, before the age of reckoning- before they are able to fully know right from wrong, bewfore they can make a descision to accept God or not- will go to heaven if they die before that age), and God has the absolute right to allow what He will for His own purposes. We do NOT accept that- God either performs for our delight on demand, or else!!~! Oh, we wouldn’t come right out and say that of course, we’re ‘good people’ after all! But the truth is, that is exactly our sentiment, it’s just that we refuse to admit it or have it exposed in any way shape or form. God however, has the right to allow that sentiment to be exposed in all it’s ugliness however He chooses, and we don’t like it one bit! We’re ‘good people’ dangit! And we ‘don’t deserve’ to be treated that way! We don’t deserve to watch our young loved ones wasting away from illness- taken by criminals and abused severely- our our folks, who worked hard all their lives, lying in a hsopital bed at age 60 or so fighting for their lives, instead of enjoying the fruits of the labor and enjoying a cushy retirement.
You’re not going to liek this one bit Buckeye, but it’s the cold hard reality- We unleashed the Devil, we WILLINGLY invited Him into our lives, and now that we are reaping what we have sown, we don’t liek it one little bit. We turn around and blame God for soemthing WE DID- soemthing we allowed to happen. And here’s something you’re really not going to like- but I’m sorry, it needs saying because it is the ugly truth that we do everythign in our power to subdue, to hide away, to ignore- We hate God for not fixing the mess we got ourselves into. We KNOW that the wages of sin is death (and quite frankly, that death can come at anytime, in any number of ways, hard harsh death, or a comfortable passing in the night while asleep), BUT WE DEMAND that WE be able to hold onto our sin and have God ignore our sin and give us all the comforts of life anyways.
The truth IS- Blessed is the man who, DESPITE, and INSPITE of the fact that evil exists and affects us personally, believes in God and calls upon His name in the face of evil. Blessed is the man who DESPITE the fact that God isn’t seomone who performs on our demand and makes our lives pain-free and comfortable, and DESPITE the fact that the age of miracles is over, and DESPITE the fact that God. for this time being- during the what is called the church age, a time of great trial and tribulation minus God’s direct personal appearance and involvement in spuernatural miracles such as supernaturally resoring limbs (Which God is fully capable of as we nkow from Scripture when Christ was present amoung us, and when God was present Himself amoung the Israelites), blessed is He who can cut out hte self-pitying, and stand up against Satan who desperately wants us to succumb to self-pitying so that we thrust our fist in God’s face and with chest out, with Pride beaming forth from our all important self-existence, declare “God You have NO right allowing this to me- I’m a ‘good person!”, and Trusts god INSPITE of the evils that befall us because WE invited it to happen when WE ate that apple!
If you’ve read this far, I imagine it’s probably not set well with you, and I am sorry- but hiding from our inner self-coddling desires for exemption from the evil we brought upon ourselves WILLINGLY in the garden, is NOT doing anyone any eternal good. It takes a strong man/woman to admit that we ALL are NOT ‘good people’, while we may put on a mask, and pretend we are ‘good people’, we STILL have an inner loathing that despises the fact that God has a Soveriegn right to expose our self-pitying nature by allowing Satan to bring the very thing we invited Him to bring into our lives- evil!
We need to cut through the bull- strip the masks off, and face our TRUE selves with ALL it’s ugliness. Until we’re willing to do that, we’ll keep insisting God is to blame for everythign, and that “He could stop the evil, but doesn’t, despite hte fact that we, ‘good poeple’ are ‘earnest’ in our ‘goodness’, and pray to Him diligently, but don’t ‘hear from Him’ therefore He must not exist.
Buckeye- God exists, but you find Him until you realize that your inner self-pitying is keeping you from truly meeting/knowing God. (And please don’t take that as an insult- We ALL are self-pitying, demanding that nothing bad ever happen, and when it does, we sulk and stomp out feet and demand even more insistently)
I struggle somethign fierce with self-pitying. I have had a serious disease all my life, I missed out on my childhood years, most of my teen years until I got an operation that saved my life, but left me with a disgusting filthy rotton ostomy pouch, (I was a juniour in Highschool, and only wieghed 78 pounds because my disease- Crohn’s disease, was not allowing me to get enough nutrition)- after operation I had 11 good years, then started getting sick again, and needed many more operations- Then, I discovered I had a pituitary tumor (Who knows how long I’ve had it- we caught it by accident) and the tumor caused Acromegally, a quite rare condtion that only 1 in 600,000 pewople get (Andrea the giant had it- but he had it before his growth plates shut off, which casued him to get giantism- My Acromegally came after the growth plates shut down, but I stil lexperienced several problems- enlarged intestines, enlarged heart, minor facial distortions etc.), then after that operation, Which doesn’t cure a person as the tumors reappear over 60% of the time, I found out I had sleep apnea, and I also am developing a muscle condition that makes my muscles very weak upon even small exhertions- Docs aren’t sure yet what the problem is, but the couple of diseases that they think it might be have no cure or even effective treatment- This struck me down in the prime of my life, and I went from a very active, hard working person, to someone who can’t even brush my teeth without muscle pain anymore. So, as you can see- I have more reason than most to be self-pitying, and beleive me, I am privately self-pitying when I ‘tell God’ how things are, and how things should be- because darn-it, I’m a ‘good person’ and I don’t deserve all this!!! I have REALLY struggled along the way with God’s soveriegnty and absolute right to allow what He will FOR HIS OWN PURPOSES. My vision is so narrow, that I simply can not see the big piucture- Pain has a way fo narrowing a person’s view (interpretation- it makes us sink into self-pitying), and causing us to succomb to Satan’s plan of causing us to turn away from God because ‘things could be better “IF ONLY” God would make the uglies go away’. But I tell you the truth- evils expose our selfish natures quicker than anythign I nkow. They cause us to get real with God, to cut hte crap, cut out our sefl-delusion, and face the ugly fact that we demand God to perform at our command before we’ll even htink about accepting Him!
Sorry so long- but this harsh reality needed to be said isntead of ‘politely’ dancing around the reality in an effort to try not to offend- Eternity is too long a time for us to be ‘polite’ by avoiding the very evil that is keeping us from coming face to face with God in all truthfulness instead of the way we want to- hiding our inner hate from God- God is NOT fooled- we may think we’re hiding it niecely from Him- but we’re not- We may delude ourselves into thinking we’re ‘good people’ or that others are ‘ggod people’ but the reality is God allows evils to expose our true inner selves, and when it’;s exposed, it’s ugly, it’s abrasive, and it shows us who we really are- and we’ll either face God with all our ugliness and allow Him to be God, and accept Him, or we’ll stomp our foots and run away from Him at the first sign of trouble- The path to God is not for the faint of heart. After the fall in the garden, God didn’t promise us a bed of roses without any pain, He laid it out plainly for al lto see what we had doen to ourselves. God gave us free will, and we chose to go our own way, and God allowed us to FREELY invite the evil one to do His worste, but now we don’t liek it and we want a ‘do over’ but I you the truth- we WILL eat that apple again- Each one of us WILL.