Posted on 06/02/2007 9:43:40 AM PDT by Natural Law
Count me in!
This thread is relevant to my interests!
Unfortunately, one major flaw in those anti-Federalists (the Democrat-Republicans) is that Jefferson and his compatriots enshrined slavery into the Constitution. It was the Federalists who rightly wanted it gone. We would’ve avoided considerable problems if the wisdom of Adams and Hamilton had prevailed.
I don't think it's necessarily a matter of "morality". With the advent of the New Deal (read the case of Wickard v Filburn) the government has adopted socialist policies that actively discourage self reliance for the "common good". Making people rely on others for things they could do for themselves forces them to engage in commerce, which provides a point of control and mechanism for taxation.
I question this. Civilization requires established communities, which in turn means gathering(s) of people of different natures, which, in turn means the necessity of laws and rules to insure that transactions of whatever size proceed as smoothly as is humanly possible. This, in turn, requires some body to establish, maintain, and enforce those laws, and the mete out punishments and rewards. That body is known as a "government".
A population is depended on government b/c the main requirement of a civilization is that the individual surrender the prerogative to be his own judge. "Self-government" does not work, has never worked, and will never work, b/c we are individuals, not ants.
We are human beings, not angels come down from heaven. If self-dicipline is not exactly our strong suit as individuals, how much less so when attempting a "self-government" community! Which, by the by, has to have some kind of organizer, a "leader" if you will; and since this leader can't be everywhere at once, and doesn't have the answer to every problem/question, he needs a couple of helpers. One thing leads to another and Voila! You have a government, even in this self-disciplined community.
Civilization, and government that struggles to maintain it, is an endless balancing act between order and liberty.
bump for later read
Actual history is far more complex than the snippets you cite from an 8th grade American History text book. Slavery was not enshrined in the constitution. The words slave or slavery do appear in the document until the 13th and 14th amendments. Therefore the 10th amendment (The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.) made slavery a states issue by loophole.
Federalism was the only means and theme available to those living outside slave states who opposed the concept of slavery. It's funny that this cuts both ways. The same Federalism that you claim freed the slaves in 1865 is the same political force that enables the abortion of millions of babies today.
Kindly point out exactly where in the original Constitution and the first 10 Amendments the word 'slavery' is located.
Thanks in advance.
L
That was a direct reference to Ben Franklin’s requirements for keeping the constitution once it was established. He observed and used the term ‘morality’ in a more general sense than it is used today — to define all those things which embody virtuous conduct so that the affairs of the Federal Government are limited to tariffs, transportation, the military, and those facets of laws and regulations such as over patents and trademarks that must be uniformly addressed for commerce, industry, trade, and ingenuity to function.
Bttt
I don’t know about the court case you mentioned, but I nevertheless agree. In addressing the two great crises of the 20th century, the central govt. took on tremendous power and control over our society and generated huge bureaucracies. When the Depression and the Second World War ended, the central government didn’t relinquish any of that power and control. That central government instead metastisized into the monster we now live under.
Two hundred years ago, the following observation was made about democracy:
“It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for ...”
Once this point is reached, productive individuals slow the pace of their ambitions since the transfer of wealth is painful to watch.
The fostering of dependent individuals is exactly where humans differ from ants. In a single generation a human colony will collapse from ineptitude.
Disagree. It's been one of perpetual retreat by the anti-federalists. Sometimes slowly. Sometimes quickly. But retreat. America bears no resemblance to a federal republic anymore.
While it was not mentioned as a WORD, it was clear in Article 1, Section 2, Paragraph 3, that the three-fifths clause was a specific address of the institution. To reduce a human being to a percentage was a singular abomination. Slavery should've been abolished en masse at the latest by the writing of the document, but Jefferson and his Democrat-Republicans refused to do so. Leaving that "institution" to the states to decide, and ultimately foisting it off to future generations to hash out was a cop-out, and the consequences ultimately would lead to war.
Post #16.
The anti-Federalists are not only not back, they don’t even know there is such a thing.
Thanks. It's rare for someone around here to be big enough to admit they were wrong.
To reduce a human being to a percentage was a singular abomination.
Agreed.
Slavery should've been abolished en masse at the latest by the writing of the document, but Jefferson and his Democrat-Republicans refused to do so.
Change 'refused' to 'were unable to do so' and you'll be more correct. The Southern States would never have signed onto the Constitution if it abolished slavery. Jefferson and the other Founders knew this. So do you.
Without that 3/5ths compromise the United States would never have been founded.
L
Yes, yankeedame, we are all dependent on government of one sort or another to insure that we are protected from internal and external evil in (theoretically) a just manner; hence the need for e. g., police, military, and courts.
But I believe that Sundog takes "dependent on government" to the point of economic dependence, e. g., dependence on "social programs" and "welfare programs." That's when things become more problematic for self-rule because government becomes a leviathan - the master rather than the servant it was supposed to be.
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