Posted on 05/11/2007 6:19:24 AM PDT by Renfield
Ancient Egypt had nothing to do with Islam.
Correct and the Coptic Christians Living in Egypt predate Islam by 650 Years.
Further, Most of the Iraqis are really Chaldean and Assyiran Christians forced under pain of death to convert to Islam long ago.. That is why they don’t look like your typical Arabs..In Fact there is fairly large Group of “Muslims” Just on the edge of Southern Kurdistan who were Jews forcibly converted. They with few exceptions have always lived peaceably with the Chaldean and Assyrian Christians still remaining in Iraq.
Your comments on Greece not being Western..
I am sure they will be as surprised to hear it as I..
W
Ancient Egypt had nothing to do with Islam.
Correct and the Coptic Christians Living in Egypt predate Islam by 650 Years.
Further, Most of the Iraqis are really Chaldean and Assyrian Christians forced under pain of death to convert to Islam long ago.. That is why they don’t look like your typical Arabs..In Fact there is fairly large Group of “Muslims” Just on the edge of Southern Kurdistan who were Jews forcibly converted. They with few exceptions have always lived peaceably with the Chaldean and Assyrian Christians still remaining in Iraq.
Your comments on Greece not being Western..
I am sure they will be as surprised to hear it as I..
W
Greece is more eastern than western. It’s the crossroads between worlds. (Eastern not meaning Islamic, of course)
They call this a “new discrovery”? Pathetic. The Greeks themselves state their knowledge on medicine and other aspects of their culture was derived from the Egyptians and other ME cultures. How stupid are these researchers? I think they are too many such “scholars” out there nowadays who want their names to be claimed in fame somehow and history books to remember them as one of the few who ‘discovered new evidence’ about ancient civilizations.
That's funny given Greece is the original location of those who called themselves "Westerners". Who do you think were the first "Western Europeans" and why do you think ancient Greeks called everything East of the Aegean Sea "Anatoli" which is Greek for East and everything West of the Adriatic and North of Illyrian 'lands of the barbarians'? Also do know what the original ancient borders of Europe were? 'Cause knowing the answer to this question means knowing the answers to the other two. I'll give you another hint: they stopped at the Ionian Sea, Aegean Sea, Crete and Thrace.
The issue with the Greeks is they pushed thought into science and the scientific method.
It went from random practices that were done for some voodoo reason into asking WHY should we be doing this.
Cause and effect,
empirical observations,
that sort of thing.
Not letting out the evil spirits stuff...
I think it was Prince William of Orange whose physician trepanned him something like 75 times.
He needed that like he needed a hole in the head!
“...In no time, either ancient, medieval or modern did Greeks ever call or view the Greek mainland as being part of the East....”
That is how you view it, internally. However, as a non-Greek, this is how I see it:
Greek music sounds a lot like Turkish music.
Greek food is a lot like middle-eastern food.
The ancient Hellenic custom of keeping the wife a virtual prisoner in her own home, is most definitely middle-eastern.
When we speak of Greece, in a political sense, being the foundation of Western thought, we really are referring to the city-state of Athens. Most of Greece, in Hellenic times, was not in any sense, a Democracy or Republic. Liberty, as we know it in the West, didn’t exist in most of Greece, throughout history.
Greece always looked to the East. Alexander didn’t even point his nose toward Italy.
Greek history/mentality, has not much to do with Central European or Western mentality. They are lands of the barbarians. Eastern is a definition that depends on where you stand. Greeks would be offended if equated to westerners (barbarians).
AM
Misconceptions of those who are not familiar with Greek culture, including food, music and dances but it wouldn't surprise me given most are probably familiar with "greek music" through the tsifteteli.
"Greek music sounds a lot like Turkish music."
Not all, although some aspects of Greek music are influenced by Eastern "oriental" music, this is not the case across the board. Also Turkish music has been influenced by the peoples they conquered, such as Greeks, Albanian, Serbian, Russian, Slavic, Jewish, Romanian ect. Music that does not have "Turkish" origins and based upon the native populations of Eastern European regions are the following:
Pentozali-starts off fast and gets faster
Ta Smyrneika tragoudia-in Traditional Greek Island beat
Kotsari Traditional Pontic Greek, Blacis Sea peoples etc. dance adopted by Ottoman Turks
The Gaida used in the first clip is origins are from the Balkan regions, in other words its not an instrument that was introduced by the Ottomans but one that they adopted from the peoples they conquered. These kinds of music is not Turkish in origin by Eastern European.
BTW, pyrecheios and line dance has its origins in the ancient peoples who lived in the region. Homer,Xenophon,Plato&Stravo have written about this dance. In fact ancient Greek general Xenophon in his work the Anabasis describes the pyrrhic/korybantes dance among the Greeks who lived in the Black Sea region;
Pontian Serenitsa origin in pyrrhic Greek
Pontian Serenitsa another w/origin in pyrrhic Greek
Pontian Tik another dance w/origin in pyrrhic Greek
"Greek food is a lot like middle-eastern food."
Not all and its not just Greek food, any foods in the Balkan regions has influence from each other, Greek, Serbian, Bulgarian, Slavic, Albanian, Romanian, Turkish, etc. Plus there are a lot of foods that are Greek in origins, you've just never heard any of them such as:magiritsa, fasolada, black soup(origin in Sparta), tarhana(a dish adopted by the Turks), bourou-bourou, stifado, spetsofai, gastris, vasilopita, koulourakia, tsoureki, kourabiedes, melomakarona, sweets of the spoon, marmalade. BTW, pizza also has its origins with Greek migrants who founded Napels. ;)
The ancient Hellenic custom of keeping the wife a virtual prisoner in her own home, is most definitely middle-eastern.
False and misconceptions again. For one ancient Greek women were not kept "virtual prisoners", i.e. Spartan, Persian, Minoan, etc. women had more freedom then women in 19th century Britain or N. America. No where in time were ancient Greek women "prisoners" in their homes. Xenophon describes two females grabbing knives and dancing the Pontian Maxeria(Knife) dance in his work; another dance/music the Ottoman Turks adopted from the people who lived in the region before they arrived.
"When we speak of Greece, in a political sense, being the foundation of Western thought, we really are referring to the city-state of Athens. Most of Greece, in Hellenic times, was not in any sense, a Democracy or Republic. Liberty, as we know it in the West, didn’t exist in most of Greece, throughout history."
The concept of democracy began with Greece. For one democracy was a Greek ideal and the Greek ideal came to be the ideal of the West and to pretend that the West and modern democracy evolved separately or are separable from ancient Greek democracy, and therefore the West has no closer link to the ancient ideal of Greece than Africa or the Middle East are delusional modern ideology that make no sense. Like it or not it was archaic Greece who certainly laid suitable foundations for the building of democracy that evolved into modern democracy. Democracy that we know today DID evolve from ancient Greece into a western phenomenon and to try to claim otherwise is quite ludicrous. BTW, Athens was not only place in ancient Greece that had a democratic system in place, if Athens was democratic in nature Sparta was republic.
"Greece always looked to the East. Alexander didn’t even point his nose toward Italy."
Really now? How much do you know about the ancient Greek world? 'Cause I can name you at least half a dozen cities that were founded by Greek migrants in the West including Napels, Marseille, and most of Southern Italy, in fact southern Italy was known as Magna Graecia(Greater Greece) in ancient times because Greeks outnumbered Latins 5 to 1 at those times. ;)
Greek Colonization:From the Iberian(Spain) peninsula to the Black Sea regions and Central Asia
Greek and Phoenician Colonization
This little dude is of Greek origins from the Italian city Salentino (Apulia, Italy originally founded by Greek migrants). He is speaking a Greek dialogue known as Griko. Griko along with Tsakonian(another Greek dialogue) are not derived from Attic Koine as most other modern Greek dialogues are. Griko and Tsakonian are both derived from the old Doric branch:
Being Greek I know for a fact that Greeks are not “offended” to be equated to “westerners” given that is what Greeks considered themselves as before anyone else.
"A Greek mother and daughter early turn of the century right before the population exchange from the town of Ayvalik(Kidonies), on the Smyrna/Izmir coast in Asia Minor opposite from the Greek island Mytelini. The town was known as Kidonies by the town's formerly large Greek population although use of the name Ayvalik was widespread for centuries by both Turks and Greeks."
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