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To: apro

“...In no time, either ancient, medieval or modern did Greeks ever call or view the Greek mainland as being part of the East....”

That is how you view it, internally. However, as a non-Greek, this is how I see it:
Greek music sounds a lot like Turkish music.
Greek food is a lot like middle-eastern food.
The ancient Hellenic custom of keeping the wife a virtual prisoner in her own home, is most definitely middle-eastern.

When we speak of Greece, in a political sense, being the foundation of Western thought, we really are referring to the city-state of Athens. Most of Greece, in Hellenic times, was not in any sense, a Democracy or Republic. Liberty, as we know it in the West, didn’t exist in most of Greece, throughout history.

Greece always looked to the East. Alexander didn’t even point his nose toward Italy.


49 posted on 05/12/2007 4:03:29 PM PDT by Renfield
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To: Renfield
"That is how you view it, internally. However, as a non-Greek, this is how I see it":

Misconceptions of those who are not familiar with Greek culture, including food, music and dances but it wouldn't surprise me given most are probably familiar with "greek music" through the tsifteteli.

"Greek music sounds a lot like Turkish music."

Not all, although some aspects of Greek music are influenced by Eastern "oriental" music, this is not the case across the board. Also Turkish music has been influenced by the peoples they conquered, such as Greeks, Albanian, Serbian, Russian, Slavic, Jewish, Romanian ect. Music that does not have "Turkish" origins and based upon the native populations of Eastern European regions are the following:

Alexandria, Greece

Pentozali-starts off fast and gets faster

Greek Folk dance

Kalamatiano

Sirtaki

Creten Pentozali

Greek traditional

Nisiotikia

Tsakonikos dance

Tsakonikos flogera

Epirotika

Sirto

Tsamiko

Ikariotiko

Greek Island music

Tsamiko&Ikariotiko

Greek Sousta

Rethimno Pentozali

Hasaposerviko

Traditional Creten

Creten

Ta Smyrneika tragoudia-in Traditional Greek Island beat

Vlachika, Greece

Lerikos

Traditional Greek Lullaby

Poustseno

Zonaradikos

Kotsari Traditional Pontic Greek, Blacis Sea peoples etc. dance adopted by Ottoman Turks

Stamna Cypriot dance

xasapiko fragosyriani

Koftos

Karagouna

The Gaida used in the first clip is origins are from the Balkan regions, in other words its not an instrument that was introduced by the Ottomans but one that they adopted from the peoples they conquered. These kinds of music is not Turkish in origin by Eastern European.

BTW, pyrecheios and line dance has its origins in the ancient peoples who lived in the region. Homer,Xenophon,Plato&Stravo have written about this dance. In fact ancient Greek general Xenophon in his work the Anabasis describes the pyrrhic/korybantes dance among the Greeks who lived in the Black Sea region;

Pontian pyrrhic

Pontian Serenitsa origin in pyrrhic Greek

Pontian Serenitsa another w/origin in pyrrhic Greek

Pontian Tik another dance w/origin in pyrrhic Greek

"Greek food is a lot like middle-eastern food."

Not all and its not just Greek food, any foods in the Balkan regions has influence from each other, Greek, Serbian, Bulgarian, Slavic, Albanian, Romanian, Turkish, etc. Plus there are a lot of foods that are Greek in origins, you've just never heard any of them such as:magiritsa, fasolada, black soup(origin in Sparta), tarhana(a dish adopted by the Turks), bourou-bourou, stifado, spetsofai, gastris, vasilopita, koulourakia, tsoureki, kourabiedes, melomakarona, sweets of the spoon, marmalade. BTW, pizza also has its origins with Greek migrants who founded Napels. ;)

The ancient Hellenic custom of keeping the wife a virtual prisoner in her own home, is most definitely middle-eastern.

False and misconceptions again. For one ancient Greek women were not kept "virtual prisoners", i.e. Spartan, Persian, Minoan, etc. women had more freedom then women in 19th century Britain or N. America. No where in time were ancient Greek women "prisoners" in their homes. Xenophon describes two females grabbing knives and dancing the Pontian Maxeria(Knife) dance in his work; another dance/music the Ottoman Turks adopted from the people who lived in the region before they arrived.

Pontian pyrrhic(knife)

"When we speak of Greece, in a political sense, being the foundation of Western thought, we really are referring to the city-state of Athens. Most of Greece, in Hellenic times, was not in any sense, a Democracy or Republic. Liberty, as we know it in the West, didn’t exist in most of Greece, throughout history."

The concept of democracy began with Greece. For one democracy was a Greek ideal and the Greek ideal came to be the ideal of the West and to pretend that the West and modern democracy evolved separately or are separable from ancient Greek democracy, and therefore the West has no closer link to the ancient ideal of Greece than Africa or the Middle East are delusional modern ideology that make no sense. Like it or not it was archaic Greece who certainly laid suitable foundations for the building of democracy that evolved into modern democracy. Democracy that we know today DID evolve from ancient Greece into a western phenomenon and to try to claim otherwise is quite ludicrous. BTW, Athens was not only place in ancient Greece that had a democratic system in place, if Athens was democratic in nature Sparta was republic.

"Greece always looked to the East. Alexander didn’t even point his nose toward Italy."

Really now? How much do you know about the ancient Greek world? 'Cause I can name you at least half a dozen cities that were founded by Greek migrants in the West including Napels, Marseille, and most of Southern Italy, in fact southern Italy was known as Magna Graecia(Greater Greece) in ancient times because Greeks outnumbered Latins 5 to 1 at those times. ;)

Greek Colonization:From the Iberian(Spain) peninsula to the Black Sea regions and Central Asia

Magna Graecia

Greek and Phoenician Colonization

This little dude is of Greek origins from the Italian city Salentino (Apulia, Italy originally founded by Greek migrants). He is speaking a Greek dialogue known as Griko. Griko along with Tsakonian(another Greek dialogue) are not derived from Attic Koine as most other modern Greek dialogues are. Griko and Tsakonian are both derived from the old Doric branch:

Griko

51 posted on 05/15/2007 12:05:31 AM PDT by apro
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