[psychoknk]

The foudning fathers based our nation upon the requirement of a republic to support and foster virtue, as well as to protect rights and liberties.

That hasn't worked well. People who are compelled to be virtuous because of law aren't actually virtuous. I suppose by your standards, adultery and homosexuality should be illegal.

IOW, it's not about "me."

I would say that it is the other way round. You want to enforce your notions of virtue upon others. I would say, let every man choose the path that he will lead so long as it does not impinge upon the the paths of others. I will be "virtuous," and I will try to raise my children to do the same. However, it is not my place to enforce my views upon my neighbor. Nor has it been shown that legislation has been effective in that regard.

[unspun]

Fallacious again. You're starting from a false idea of moral relativism -- which is anti-American.

[FormerLib]

You want to enforce your notions of virtue upon others. I would say, let every man choose the path that he will lead so long as it does not impinge upon the the paths of others.

Did you miss the part about how prostitution was made illegal (in the US in the late 19th Century) because women were being forced into the profession?

[JamesP81]

The foudning fathers based our nation upon the requirement of a republic to support and foster virtue, as well as to protect rights and liberties.

That hasn't worked well. People who are compelled to be virtuous because of law aren't actually virtuous. I suppose by your standards, adultery and homosexuality should be illegal.

Actually, the both of you are at least somewhat right. Government is instituted among men to secure rights and liberties. See the Declaration of Independence; it says as such in plain language. However, our government and society cannot function without people of virtue in it. Or, as John Adams said, "We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

Our government depends on people of virtue and, frankly, depends on the Church to be society's moral conscience. The Forefathers understood the necessity of this, which is why much of our legal code is firmly rooted in Judeo-Christian ehtics, as it should be. Unfortunately, we are now in this situation where libertarians have difficutly advocated limited government type positions without also helping those who would use their freedom for immorality and debauchery. The Church, seeing this happen, feels obligated to do something to stop it, and since big government is the flavor of the century, mistakenly turns to legislation on some issues to solve it.

You know, people didn't use to smoke crack, get divorced, or committ adultery as frequently as they do now. There was a time when that stuff was socially stigmatized. This was a good thing. Now that that stigma is lost, I'm not sure we can ever get it back.

Libertarians might be right on the function of government, but they don't help their own cause, especially on the abortion issue. It's hard to take seriously someone who talks about liberty and securing rights when they'll allow someone to deprive a totally innocent person of his life through the barbaric act of abortion.

On the other hand, we in the Church have our own problem. At some point, society told the Church it shouldn't involve itself in anything political. The Church incorrectly interpreted the verse about 'rendering unto Caesar' and did as it was told. By doing so we've surrendered our moral authority, one of the threads that holds our republic together. Drugs were legal in this country up until the 20th century, but we didn't have a drug problem. Why? Because it was so looked down upon by society, and rightly so, that few people did it. When the Church gave up the moral authority to stigmatize sinful behavior, we did the greatest disservice we could to this republic and now, it will take nothing short of an act of God to restore that.

[grey_whiskers]

People who are compelled to be virtuous because of law aren't actually virtuous.

Go toke another joint.

"You can't legislate morality" -- tired 60's creed.

"But it sure beats the hell out of legislating immorality" -- FReepers creed.

Cheers!