Prostitutes and Politics Why is it still illegal to pay for sex?

Reason Online ^ | May 7, 2007 | Cathy Young

[Lusis]

The resignation of Randall Tobias, the chief of the Bush administration's foreign aid programs, for "personal reasons" following the revelation that he had engaged the services of two escort-service workers has provided rich grist for amusement on the punditry circuit. There was indeed plenty of material for humor in the situation, from Tobias's strong stand in favor of abstinence teaching in AIDS prevention programs to his "I didn't inhale"-style assertion that he never had sex with the women. But the predictable laughs have obscured a much larger issue than hypocrisy in the ranks of social conservatives. The reason Tobias's call-girl adventures became public is that the owner of the Washington, DC-based service, Pamela Martin, is facing prosecution and has turned her records over to news organizations to help pay for her legal defense.

Even those who feel a certain schadenfreude at Tobias's downfall should be asking the question: should there have been a criminal case in the first place?

[Hemingway's Ghost]

The Forefathers disagree with you.

Please . . . the Forefathers could barely get over their own religious differences, and they were all mainline Protestants. It's obvious you have a rose-colored glasses view of history.

You keep on quoting Adams, but he was a Puritan---one of the last of a dying breed. Franklin was a total libertine, and Jefferson, I believe, was a Deist. I'm sure each would have problems with what the others felt was true "morality."

Like I wrote, the grand, sweeping themes are one thing: the Devil is in the details.

My point about the church's function being the moral voice in society's mind is only part of its job; the part that relates to society and the civil authority.

Well, that's certainly the "part" we're discussing in this thread, is it not? The part you claimed has a direct relationship with our government? For the purposes of this thread, I could care less about any other part a church plays in the life of its members. Let's stick to the subject at hand, shall we?

[Constantine XIII]

Also, $5 says everyone supporting the original poster is a man.

LOL

[unspun]

And yes, obfuscation of the truth is no argument.

Wonderful. Who's doing such a thing?The point:

The fact that some disagree about a comunication {the Bible, the U.S. Constitution, manual for a Linconln Log house, etc.) is neither a nullification of the referenced document, nor an excuse for ignoring it (although it is a criticism of some of those those in conflict, whether they believe it or are the nullifiers).

Presenting the argument, "Look at all the apparent adherents to (The Bible, the Constitution, etc.) who disagree about it! Therefore, it cannot be an effective guide!" is obfuscation.

I suggest you go out into the sunlight, this Spring day, take some deep breaths and take a fresh approach.

[TheKidster]

that’s another function of the church that many inside the church seem to have forgotten.

Which makes those churches seem irrelevant to those in need of the gospel because there is nothing positive that differentiates them from the secular organizations.

[Star Traveler]

You said — “Nothing personal, but I sincerly doubt you could make the “argument” you made without using such a heavy dose of metaphysics. Go ahead and try, limiting your argument to the “Earthly” realm . . .”

—

Well, you’ll note in the post I was responding to (post #250), that the poster referred to — “GOD given right to liberty”. And thus, from that, we see that this realm actually *establishes* rights — in this very place, called earth. In fact the object of God and what He says — is really upon this earth and how we actually *live* upon this earth, besides what will happen afterwards.

And, by the way, what happens *afterwards* will also happen *on this earth* — as we see that from the Millennial Reign of Jesus Christ — right here on this very same earth, with these same human beings, ruling and reigning over these same nations that we see today, and over these same peoples who exist on this earth today.

So, *contrary* to what you want to say, it is this *very earth* itself and our existence upon this earth that is spoken about in the Bible and which has the attention of God and God’s actions.

By the word of the Declaration of Independence, we *only* have these certain rights *absolutely guaranteed* (in which no government has the right to take them away) precisely because it’s God, Himself who has granted them — and not — any of these governmental powers.

And so we see, by God’s own words and how He tells us to “live on this earth” (and not simply wait for the “by and by”) — that it is nothing short of *utter depravity* in which people engage in prostitution.

God furthermore states and makes it emphatic that *depravity begats depravity* — and only the *depraved* praise and encourage more depravity.

Thus this is what we see here, nothing less than *depraved individuals* encouraging and giving their “hearty approval” to other depraved individuals to commit more and like depraved acts.

That is the very simple message of what is going on — right here, on this earth — and not in the “by and by, in the sky”. Prostitution is nothing more than depraved individuals acting out their sinful passions and encouraging more depravity for society and for each other.

The Bible is also clear that what happens *on this earth* — when depraved individuals choose to ignore God and encourage what they know to be sin, they simply go downhill into more depraved actions.

We see from what the Apostle Paul says about what happens *right here on earth* — in regards to these kinds of *depraved individuals* who like to encourage other to engage in like and sinful actions...

Romans 1:16-32 —

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.

20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,

21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,

23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,

25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature.

27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting;

29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers,

30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful;

32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

—

This is definitely a most fitting description of those who promote the sinful actions that God declares as such. This does describe many of the posters here....

[dcwusmc]

Since theft and murder (the usual statist red herrings) have quantifiable VICTIMS (you know, the dead body on the floor and the missing stereo or cash belonging to the deceased), they are properly considered crimes, the crime being the violation of the rights of the victim. You know, the dead guy. If a prostitute is not coerced into her profession and does not put a gun to the head of her customer, then who is the victim? (Hint: “Society” is NOT a valid or correct answer.)

Now, granted, renting a sex partner may be wrong, reprehensible and/or immoral. But it is NOT something for government to attempt to outlaw. It is something for families, churches and individuals to deal with, to convince its practitioners that there is a better way than renting out their bodies. When you outlaw it and drive it underground, you LOSE that opportunity.

I only go through this since you are a relative noobie here and possibly you haven't seen your ploy used by the nanny-staters yet. However, this is probably going to be the only time you get such a break for that silly remark.

[WhiteGuy]

Prostitutes and Politics Why is it still illegal to pay for sex?

Maybe because there are still those who get their jollies mostly by having a secret naughty side to them. They can only be satisfied by publicly renouncing such behavior while engaging in it privately?

[Star Traveler]

You said — “Government is legitimately allowed to use force to prevent people from being defrauded - you are correct and i should have specified that. It does not apply here though, unless the John refuses to pay or the whore rolls the John.”

—

The purpose of God-given government (which the Bible says that governmental authorities are God-given) is to restrain evil and to punish evil-doers. And how do we know what is “evil” or an “evil-doer” — other than by definition of the God who puts into place the “institution” of “government” for that purpose?

We see from God, Himself, that this is evil and those who participate in it are evil-doers. God is not concerned that two evil individuals made an agreement with each other to participate in an evil act. God condemns both evil doers for engaging in the evil act, regardless of money or contract or mutal agreement.

—

And talking about the outlawing of thoughts, as Jesus *so appropriately* pointed out — that is where it starts — that is never something that was stated as a function of government. In fact, the Bible makes it clear that the punishment comes from the *action* — rather than the thought. Jesus was pointing out that the “action” comes from the “thought”. One leads to the other. The punishment comes when “thought” results in “action”. That’s *always* been the basis for Biblical punishment.

And you’ll note that when the Great White Throne judgement comes down (see end of Revelation), you’ll see that it’s the *deeds* and *actions* which are “judged” even then — and not the thoughts. The very simple reason is that “deeds” are the “outward manifestation” of “hidden thoughts”. And it’s the “outward manifestation” which is punished.

—

You noted that “legislating morality” will not produce a moral society. Well, you are making the wrong assumptions here. It’s not supposed to produce a moral society. It’s simply supposed to *restrain evil* — nothing more and nothing less.

Its goal is *not* to “produce internal morals” where none exist in the first place. The *purpose* is to *restrain evil* — because if it is not restrained — it will be rampant and God has commanded this “institution” of “government” to be that *restraint* upon evil in the world.

So, you’re *wrong* in the presumption that it has *anything* to do with “producing morality”. That’s why that’s a false argument. It has nothing at all to do with producing morality.

You’ll also *note* that in the Millennial reign of Christ, that Jesus, rules with an iron rod and punishment is swift and sure. It’s not like it is today. There will be no room for deviation in the Millennial Kingdom of God, which will be on this earth during that 1,000 year reign. He will be reigning over some of these very same people (i.e., “individuals”) that we see alive, here on earth right now. And He will be ruling and reigning over these very same nations who are existent upon this earth today. And He will be ruling and reigning over the sames peoples (i.e., “people groups”) as who exist on this earth today.

With all that being said — and with the Millennial Reign of Christ being the *most restrictive* government to ever to exist on the face of this earth in the *history* of the earth — we find it to *still* have evil and sin in that Kingdom. So, even then — with Christ, Himself, ruling and reigning over the entire earth — it is still full of sin and it still has death. And people (even at that time) will *still* have to accept Christ as their savior. Very surprisingly (at least to some people, it is) — we find that millions and millions (if not *billions*) of people *rebel* against Christ in His rule and reign during that 1,000 year Kingdom of God on this earth.

So, even then — the aim is not to “produce morality” — but rather to *restrain* evil and *punish* evil-doers.

[dcwusmc]

Your RIGHTS, actually, do not ever include a right to violate the rights of others. There is not, EVER, a right to kill/rape/loot or whatever, as these activities ALWAYS violate the rights of another. Society exists to allow people to interact with each other in peaceable ways. Governments exist in order to ensure that EVERYONE’S rights are protected. Otherwise, your argument is headed in the right (correct) direction.

[TheKidster]

This is definitely a most fitting description of those who promote the sinful actions that God declares as such. This does describe many of the posters here....

These words remind me of Luke 18:9-14

[Star Traveler]

You said — “Now, granted, renting a sex partner may be wrong, reprehensible and/or immoral. But it is NOT something for government to attempt to outlaw.”

—

The purpose of the institution of “government” which God tells us is put into place by Him, is to *restrain* evil and to *punish* evil-doers. It is never to promote a “morality” upon the hearts of anyone.

It is for *restraint* and *punishment* — for evil and evil-doers. Morality will come from accepting Jesus Christ as your personal Savior..

[Star Traveler]

You said — “These words remind me of Luke 18:9-14”

—

And isn’t it interesting that those very words of Scripture in Romans not only come in the very context of *sexual immorality* but also from God’s words in describing these very same individuals. It’s good that I, at least quoted God on the matter...

“32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.”

Yes, God does say some very fitting things, doesn’t He?

[Star Traveler]

I forgot to include you in post #291...

You said — “since they are legislations of morality?”

That is a red herring argument which does not describe the purpose of the divinely-commanded “institution” of “government (by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob).

[JamesP81]

It's obvious you have a rose-colored glasses view of history.

Laughable. In the extreme, in fact. The Forefathers wanted a religious influence in society, and wanted it to be a christian religious influence. They said so on a number of occasions. That's the simple fact of the matter.

[FormerLib]

So you are unable to name a single nation that has decriminalized recreational drugs then?

[Mjaye]

I’d love to hear about your vast street experience. And you missed the whole point of what I said.

If your reality really includes the notion that kids have a harder time finding alcohol than drugs (due to legal status) further mindless discussion on “let’s legalize drugs” is futile.

[GGpaX4DumpedTea]

“Perhaps because trafficking in human flesh is bad policy as well as immoral.”

Trafficing in human flesh? Is it trafficing in Human flesh when guy and gal meet in a bar, he buys her drinks, they agree to go to his or hers for the night to have sex? Is that illegal? And if you want to raise the moral issue, lets talk about King David, or King Solomon for starters.

It is time to get religion out of politics and out of the legal system. Religion is man-made and is composed of dos and don’ts for purposes of controlling people. Jesus said that Love is the Law:
1. Love the Lord your God with all your heart.
2. Love your neighbor as you love yourself.
Morality is an individual thing, and we each one of us have to answer to God for what we individually do. I do not have to answer for what you do.
I, by the way, do not claim to be “Religious” - Religion is not what God wants. He wants Spiritual people, followers of Jesus Christ, followers who are guided by the Holy Spirit. All systems of men will end, both political and religious systems. Jesus demonstrated anger and harsh words for the Scribes and Pharisees of his day - they represented a man-made Religious system with humdreds of mad-made rules. His ministry was toward those who were willing to no longer be led by the Religious Leaders.

[Dave Olson]

The men who wrote that Constitution would never allow legalized prostitution,

If that was true, then prostitution wouldn't have been legal during the first 100 or so years after the Constitution was written.

[wideawake]

Religion is not what God wants.

More realistically, you don't want religion and so you put your feelings in God's mouth.

Which is about what I would expect from someone arrogant enough to declare that he knows what God wants.

[GGpaX4DumpedTea]

I think you missed the point - Jesus (God) made clear what he thought of Religion. If you read the Gospels you will know that. Throughout the Bible God makes clear what he thinks of man-made Religions based on idol worship. Most churches today have a lot more worship going to their “idols” than is going to God. In many cases their dos and don’ts are their idols.