Posted on 05/04/2007 5:46:36 AM PDT by Saundra Duffy
“Then I must have been misinformed by members who told of taking income and tax statements to the tithing settlement, right?”
Yes. Either that or there was a rogue bishop. Tithing is an honor-based system. They take your word for it.
[raises hand] :-)
“Waht about the PMs I get. They are even more vicious....”
What about them? My embarrassment still stands. Tell the senders to grow up and remember who they claim to represent. Or engage them in a respectful, rational dialogue, refusing to be insulted or baited. That’s what I’ve done with our worst detractors here, and it drives ‘em NUTS! :-)
And there’s the rub, seven. You Mormons believe Jesus and God the Father are two separate individuals, with God the greater and Jesus the created being lesser. Christians believe that in parying to the Father in Heaven we are indeed also addressing our Lord and Savior because He is the Word made flseh, uncreated from everlasting because He IS very God manifest in the flesh. If I whisper to My Lord and Savior in private, I am addressing THE God of the Universe in His flesh manifestation, not some brother of lucifer created by God The Father Almighty.
>The point is, he chooses not to inject his theology into his public life.<
Do you mean that a sincere person can compartmentalize himself (As Bill Clinton was known to do)? All persons are the sum of his theology and his all inclusive life experience. If he/she takes an oath to uphold the Constitution, and the laws of the nation, that oath must be met. Other than that, he/she must listen to that small still voice within in order to be a sincere person. And in order to make a good decision on whose cause to join, we must listen carefully to the candidate.
An amazing comparison since the rituals in your Temple are so similar to those in Masonic rituals.
I agree with you, but let me draw this comparison.
Bush is a Methodist. Has he done anything in his public life to help the Methodist denomination? I don’t think so. He doesn’t inject Methodism into his public life, though he does pray for guidance in his actions.
That’s the kind of attitude I think Romney takes. It’s irrational to hear the word “Mormon” and automatically think that he’ll be any different than a “Methodist” with regards to his public life.
Some, unfortunately, hear the M-word and cringe; they jump to just those conclusions because of their perceptions of the LDS Church. My thesis is that this kind of assumption is morally wrong.
Yes. Utah Mormons are legendary. I have not had first hand experience, since I have never lived there, but have heard some of the stories. Wouldn’t it be something like take the most overzealous member in any other area and multiply it by three?
“How can Islam achieve that potential if we aren’t willing to give the benefit of the doubt to the genuinely earnest, good ones?”
Ummm, it’s called 911, and it’s called the basic writings of the Quran.
How can a religion EVER be good if at it’s root it calls for the enslavement and killing of kafir?
If a religion called for peace (except perhaps when attacked), and some of it’s followers twisted it into a religion of war, then there would be hope.
But Islam is first and foremost a war religion, so you are caught in circular logic if you believe a religion of war can be twisted into a religion of peace without backsliding.
You still haven’t shown why calling me a bigot is any different than me calling you a moron. Especially since you are yourself bigoted against people who believe as I do.
Well, to be fair, some of the best people I knew on my mission were from Utah. There are some of the cream of the crop there. My mission president and my favorite companion are both Utahans.
There does, also, tend to be a lot more cliqueishness (is that a word?), speaking generally. Also, many more Mormons there tend to be active in the Church because it’s the “popular” and “socially acceptable” thing to do, not because they are spiritual followers of Christ. This kind is very destructive to the image of the LDS Church, and we often hear General Conference talks specifically chastising such people.
But I should get off this soapbox before I get too worked up.
Those are probably the ones I have heard about.
“You still haven’t shown why calling me a bigot is any different than me calling you a moron.”
I never called you a bigot. I described what bigotry is; you have decided to apply the definition to yourself.
“Especially since you are yourself bigoted against people who believe as I do.”
As you are fond of saying, just because I don’t agree with you doesn’t mean I’m a bigot. Let’s be consistent, please.
“How can a religion EVER be good if at it’s root it calls for the enslavement and killing of kafir?”
I can ask the same question: how can a religion ever be good if it engages in burning at the stake, crusades, and torture in the name of God?
Yet these very acts let to the Reformation and Enlightenment. And it happened from within.
If we alienate the “good” Muslims, then this fight is lost. Our only hope at defeating the destructive ideologies that have twisted Islam is to embrace, support, and nurture those Muslims who call for moderation.
At the core, Muslims are just like Christians - they are human beings, and most of them just want to live a peaceful, happy life.
LOL
Curious
***** The plaques that are replaced there at regular intervals, commemorating the event, are vandalized by Mormons who do not want the rest of us to know what they say.
I’ve been there too, on a trip through Utah. I don’t remember any vandalism but then they may have just recently replaced the plaque.
But are you sure it was “Mormons” that did the vandalism? Was there a newspaper article or some interview were someone confessed to the vandalism?
So should I blame the Mormons or the local “don’t want you to believe this marker” crowd for most of the vandalism I’ve seen at various historical markers around the country?
I don’t know who did the vandalism but I’d be hesitant to finger someone or some group without some physical evidence.
But if there is evidence regarding who did the vandalism, then your statement was accurate. Stating the evidence up front helps avoid knee jerk reactions by a group that might find offense in your phraseology.
As for me I believe I understand what you meant.
Walk with God
“You still haven’t shown why calling me a bigot is any different than me calling you a moron.”
[I never called you a bigot. I described what bigotry is; you have decided to apply the definition to yourself.]
Oh come now, at least be honest. You believe in your bigoted heart that I am a bigot. At least be honest enough to say it out loud instead of doing an imitation of Shirley Temple dancing around the subject. The only reason you are implying I’m a bigot instead of saying it is so you can score debating points.
“Especially since you are yourself bigoted against people who believe as I do.”
[As you are fond of saying, just because I don’t agree with you doesn’t mean I’m a bigot. Let’s be consistent, please.]
I’ve merely pointed out the absurdity of your position - i.e. that you first paint me as a bigot without realizing that makes you a bigot as well. The inconsistency first started in the bizarre microcosm YOU created - you are clearly bigoted against people whose religion says they should defend themselves against War Religions that kill innocent children for sport. Don’t kill the messenger for using your own logic to show you are a bigot of first order.
“How can a religion EVER be good if at it’s root it calls for the enslavement and killing of kafir?”
[I can ask the same question: how can a religion ever be good if it engages in burning at the stake, crusades, and torture in the name of God?]
Because Christ called for turning the other cheek - he never called for murdering the innocent. Not so Mohammed, who was himself a murderous sand pirate. Unjust killings are considered heretical in Christianity - for Islam that IS the religion. Islam MEANS to submit - or else!
“Yet these very acts let to the Reformation and Enlightenment. And it happened from within.”
Proving my point. A similar Reformation has not occured in Islam and there is no evidence of any movement in that direction.
“If we alienate the “good” Muslims, then this fight is lost. Our only hope at defeating the destructive ideologies that have twisted Islam is to embrace, support, and nurture those Muslims who call for moderation.”
Fine, go to a Muslim restaurant and order a shish kabab. But giving credence to a murderous religion by voting for a “token” Islamic president isn’t in the cards.
“At the core, Muslims are just like Christians - they are human beings, and most of them just want to live a peaceful, happy life.”
So, give up your own son’s and daughters to live with them if they are so great. But count me and mine out of your delusion.
Wow, what an accomplishment for him! You must be so proud!
Indeed. I’m curious, what’s involved in the competition?
Tantiboh, it is going to be difficult for people to avoid describing mormonism as not Christian due to the declaration of Joseph Smith that all the other religions are an abomination and the deliberate method of the mormon church considering itself the "one true church". If it is the "one" why is there the desire to be of the "many"?
I have never used the word cult on the board. It is, in my opinion, not necessary in debating the merits.
You know what? We’re rapidly devolving into the same kind of arguments that we’ve all been trying to avoid. I’m not going to do that again.
You’re welcome to your viewpoints. I think I’ll keep mine. Let’s agree to leave it at that.
The dichotomy is this. Those who would call us non-Christian define the term “Christian” as “one who follows the centuries-old orthodox beliefs and traditions of the Christian faith.”
I prefer to define the term “Christian” as “one who follows Christ.”
It appears to me that you feel threatened by our confidence in our beliefs. For your own sanity, I suggest you move beyond that, because it’s not going to change.
I do appreciate your emphasis on debating the merits.
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