Posted on 04/25/2007 10:05:57 AM PDT by NYer
Deep into an auspicious night some 2,000 years ago an Israelite woman was near exhaustion and death -- struggling without success to give birth to a baby that would not come. Her husband waited anxiously nearby. The children were with her mother elsewhere in the village. The midwife, herself weary beyond any fatigue she had ever known, tried everything that experts and experience had taught her about enabling a difficult delivery. Nothing succeeded.
The baby's head was too large to pass through the birth canal. It pounded again and again, with each uterine contraction, against the mother's cervix, causing more damage with each blow. Hours went by. More hours still.
As the mother grew more weary and less able to push, depleted of energy and nutrition and sleep, and near death -- the midwife found herself faced with a cruel decision. If she did nothing, or continued to press the fetus' journey forward, the mother would die. The baby might then be extracted alive. Maybe. Or, she could intervene to end the struggle between mother and fetus in a way that would save the mother but tragically kill the fetus.
She was a religious woman and the rabbi lived not too far away. In her moment of desperation she hurried over to his home for counsel. The rabbi listened carefully and considered the options. ''What would God want of us in such a situation?'' he contemplated. Of course he could never be certain of the answer, but he reasoned that if only one could be saved, it should be the life that was more certain of survival. It should be the life that others already depended upon for their own lives. It should be the mother.
(Excerpt) Read more at mcall.com ...
Ignore EFT; I do.
There are a lot of people now on FR (maybe not EFT, but he reeks of it) that target Jewish conservatives in particular for derision.
They play such a stereotype of the hateful evangalistic nut job bigot -— which candidly is the opposite of most any actual evangelistic Christian I have ever met -— annoying, perhaps, but hate-filled, no -— that I can but think that they are people pretending to be what liberals think an evangalistic Christian actually is.
Long way of saying, “troll alert!”
“So how do you explain the fact that abortion is very accessible and easy in Israel.”
Um, maybe because Israel has a secular government, not bound by Jewish religious law, except in rare circumstances?
Israel-the-modern-nation does all sorts of things that are in violation of the “Law,” such as giving huge chunks of territory to terrorists.
Because like the United States Israel is a secular nation.
How do you explain the fact that abortion is more accessible and easier in the United States than Israel?
Can you tell me what part of the post you are so hateful of that is untrue? What have I done to you or anyone that you know of that equates with killing babies? Is there something in my post that I misquoted? If not then why do you hate the truth so much?
Listen, I am not opposed to you having your opinion but be decent enough to allow me to have mine. You launch an all out assault upon me with unbridled ad hominem and without any examples of where I was dishonest and/or vulgar (though I understand that there are those who think the truth is vulgar and in that sense I don't know what to say other than I'm not going to quit being honest because your feelings get hurt.) I've done nothing to warrant such vial attacks. Forgive me but I don't believe in telling "white lies" or blowing smoke up someone's tale to make them feel good when they've done something wrong. I believe in honoring those I speak with by being honest with them. I didn't slander anyone. I didn't call anyone a name as many of you have done me. In fact I tried to be very nice to PD with my response unfortunately those of you that have a knee-jerk reaction to everything you don't like do not have the benefit of seeing or hearing me say what I wrote. Having such a one dimensional view of things sort of leaves you handicapped I suppose when it comes to having intelligent, honest and thought provoking discussions. It's sad I know but that said I will restate my original contention that being that there is NEVER a good reason to abort a baby. PERIOD!
Good to see you.
Do you think logical or fail is meant to be part of the discourse.
Thanks to extraordinary advances in obstetrics, neonatology, and medicine in general, such choices as the midwife faced have thankfully become increasingly rare. It is often possible to save the life of both mother and fetus where once only one would survive. But the principle enunciated in the Mishna is the governing Jewish principle in such situations. Until the head is born, the mother's life takes precedence. Throughout the ages, rabbis have disagreed over how great a threat to the mother's life justifies an intervention that would sacrifice the fetus. Some have included circumstances involving even the mother's mental health. Others allow for abortion only when the mother's physical life is at stake.
is correct. As Reform Rabbis often do, he notes that Some have included circumstances involving even the mother's mental health without noting that that's contrary to halacha, but his conclusion is correct, abortion is permitted, in fact necessary, to save the life of the mother.
A circumstance which rarely comes up today.
Should note his fear that abortion will be made entirely illegal is a strawman, pre Roe all states allowed for abortion to save the mothers life.
You're right, not because of advances in medicine, but the bill contains an exeption for the life of the mother. That's the only circumstance there would be a conflict with Jewish law, and since the exception is in there, there's no conflict.
Nice...(sarcasm) Do you hate jews..?
??? My Dad is Jewish and my Savior was/is Jewish. Why would you ask such a stupid question? Do you hate them?
As for the creep that attacked you ...forget him, the love of Christ is not in him. He follows some other spirit.
Now. As to the article. Satan such keeps busy in his bloodlust.
Now. As to the article. Satan sure keeps busy in his bloodlust.
Oh, I don’t think your opinion in humble at all. In fact I think it is both ignorant and arrogant.
I will happily provide you further explanation. Please read carefully, as I can't type slowly for you.
The woman who posted #14 described her experience of her daughter's stillbirth and went on to say that she does not approve of abortion FOR ANY REASON.
Comprendo? She said, and I quote, "I do not believe in abortion for any reason. If the life of the “fetus” was not meant to be, it would not be. The Almighty decides these things and He alone."
She even put "fetus" in quotes. She specifically states that the choice belongs to God, even if the person in question is what the pro-choice movement would call a "fetus." In every other instance throughout her post, she referred to her BABY.
I will even grant you that she did not reply directly to your contention that in nearly all cases, a Cesarean will save both the mother and the baby. However, that is neither here nor there because no one called you a jerk for saying that she didn't answer your question. In fact, you could have just said, "I'm sorry for your loss, but it seems to me that perhaps your loss could have been prevented by an emergency C-section, which is my point in saying that there is no room for partial birth abortions, despite what the Rabbi may say."
But NOOOOOOOOOOO, you couldn't do that. You, in your vast wisdom, and with an extreme lack of reading comprehension skills, took the opportunity to call poster #14 ignorant, berate her for her choice of doctor, claim that she had allowed her baby to die, imply that she is in some sort of denial (of what?), and allege that she in some way was SUPPORTING PBA which she explicitly was not.
So what part of your post 19 was untrue? All of it as applied to Poster 14. She didn't have an abortion. She had a stillborn baby. And your post 19 attacked her.
What have you done that equates with the killing of babies? Nothing. And nothing poster 14 did had anything to do with the killing of babies either. But your post 19 attacked her for her personal tragedy. And I don't imagine that ranks very high on God's "things of which I approve" list.
So did you misquote in your post 19? No, you just willfully or ignorantly misunderstood post 14 in constructing your response. And, did I mention, attacked a woman for her personal tragedy?
I hope you have found this enlightening. IMHO, there is no room on FR for people who make the Democratic Underground look good, and you do just that.
The Lord bless you my dear.
I am jewish. Your post was full of hate.
The early Christians distingueshed themselves from others living in their time by protecting the lives of their children.
The Romans left unwanted children “exposed” to die in the street, or to be adopted by anyone who wanted them. And apparantly the Jews aborted them.
Frankly, I’d rather count myself with the group who protects their children.
How anybody could be so self-righteous, so judgmental and so utterly stupid is amazing and disgusting. This website definitely doesn't need such a cretinous, vile, hate spewing pretender such as this. (spit)
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