>• First, the reliability of the Scriptures. Did you know that we have more than 5,000 manuscripts of the Greek New Testament? That is a huge amount. Some manuscripts date to within 100 years of the autographs (the original writings) and all agree with each other. (Yes, there are minor differences, but there are so many copies available we can look at them and get a very accurate picture of what the New Testament writers said.) What this means is that the Bible is extremely reliable as an historical document.<
There are lots of ancient stories written about from all over with the stories varying only slightly. The Illiad is one example.
>• Second, we have writings of historians outside the Bible that corroborate the stories within it. These historians, like Pliny the Younger, Ptolemy, Tacitus and Josephus, not only mention kings, governors, dates and places found in the Bible, they also mention the disciples and Jesus himself.<
These historians mentioned the Cult of Christianity and some of it’s beliefs, that’s true. But these people also mention things like dragons, magical lands and curses/hexes.
>• Third, the empty tomb. The Gospel writers all mention that the tomb was empty Easter Sunday morning. If there had been a body there, the Romans or Jewish leaders could have shown it and that would have ended Christianity right then and there. Remember, the tomb was well guarded. Also, in the Bible, women saw the empty tomb first — that would never happen in Jewish fiction of that day, so it must have been true!<
*If* you assume the Bible is true. In the modern age we have records, witnesses, pictures and all kinds of things that prove people are dead - but there are still many people who believe Elvis is alive.
>• Fourth, Paul wrote in First Corinthians that 500 different people saw Jesus after his resurrection. Paul wrote this about 20 years after the resurrection and points out that most of them were still alive and could verify what they saw. No one disputes the validity and historicity of Paul or First Corinthians, and 500 people do not have the same hallucination.<
There are thousands of people who have seen Bigfoot, UFOs and the Loch Ness Monster as well - that doesn’t necessarily mean any of those things exist either...even when they produce pictures, hair samples, burn marks, etc.
>• Fifth, why would the early Christians have celebrated Communion and Baptism if Jesus had remained dead? History teaches that the Christians began celebrating The Lord’s Supper within 20 years of Jesus’ resurrection. Communion commemorates the sacrificial death of Jesus by celebrating the blood he shed and how his body was broken. Why would they do this if Jesus’ death had been meaningless? This would be like a John F. Kennedy fan club celebrating his death instead of his life and legacy. Further, the early Christians changed the meaning of baptism from a Jewish cleansing ritual to mean “buried with Christ and raised to life with him.” (Romans 6:4).<
Baptism isn’t a new idea. The Egyptians who worshipped Isis did a ritual “cleansing” in the Nile to free themselves from the dirt of sin. There are similar ancient practices in India. The idea of having a sacred meal as a part of a ritual isn’t a new idea either. Gods connected with the harvest were often symbolically “eaten” at rituals honoring them.
>• Sixth, why would the disciples die for a lie? We see in the Gospels that they were basically cowards. Why did these timid lambs suddenly change into the lions of the faith? Yes, people die for what they believe is true, but people do not die for what they know is NOT true. History says all of the disciples died for their faith except John.<
Right now there are suicide bombers training to die in the name of Allah: a god that the Christians reject.
>• Seventh, the emergence and growth of the church. The church started with a small rag tag group of mostly poor people who were murdered and persecuted for their belief. Within 200 years, it conquered Rome. We name our dogs Nero and Caesar and our children John and Paul. Thousands of churches and changed lives stand as a testament to the resurrection.<
The Apostles originally preached in the Synangogues until the Jews (who believed these people to be heretics) kicked them out. They then began preaching to the people in the streets walking by the Synangogue. But even then Christianity didn’t rise. A lot of the Gentiles didn’t want to follow the Jewish law (which was obeyed by the early Christians.) Remember Jesus was a Jew and followed the laws of the Hebrews. It was only after the Council of Jerusalem when Paul argued that Jesus had heralded a “New covenent” with God (meaning that Jewish law no longer had to be followed especially circumcision) that the Church really exploded. It was then bolstered by city dwellers who considered the new religion fashionable. Early Christians also tended to blend their religion with older pagan beliefs - pagan temples were converted to Christian Churches, many pagan dieties became “Saints” and pagan practices like the Easter Bunny and Christmas trees were adopted. After the Emperor Constantine was baptised on his death bed (after saying prayers to ALL gods, lest he go to hell) that Church leaders took over declaring that Christianity was the official religion of the Empire. Thus getting rid of pagans became the order of the day. Many peasants suddenly found themselves forcefully converted by their governors and aristocratic overlords.
>• Eighth, the conversion of skeptics. Scores of non-believers, including Jesus’ own brothers, Paul and atheists, have put their faith in Christ after seeing him alive or examining the evidence.<
But not everyone converted after the resurrection. Many of Christ’s critics remained so - they’re not mentioned because the Church didn’t consider these non recanting non believers important.
>• Finally, the ongoing encounters with Jesus today. Millions of us throughout history have had a conversion experience. We know Jesus is alive because we have felt, known and experienced him.<
This can be said about other Gods as well. The Hindu gods are very active. People like Osama bin Ladin have claimed to have encounters with Mohammed and Allah.
I’m not saying that Christianity is wrong or that some other religion is right - I’m saying that these aren’t necessarily good sources and this is not good “evidence.”
Sixth, why would the disciples die for a lie? We see in the Gospels that they were basically cowards. Why did these timid lambs suddenly change into the lions of the faith? Yes, people die for what they believe is true, but people do not die for what they know is NOT true. History says all of the disciples died for their faith except John.
Right now there are suicide bombers training to die in the name of Allah: a god that the Christians reject.
These were the direct participants of history, not followers of a text. Again the question is asked, why endure torture for refusing to recant?
Perhaps England does not exist since the British Navy was unwilling to die for it.
The suicide bombers did not die for something that they knew was NOT true. The apostles would have to have given their lives for something that they did not believe in and for no advantage to themselves of their families.
>• First, the reliability of the Scriptures. Did you know that we have more than 5,000 manuscripts of the Greek New Testament? That is a huge amount. Some manuscripts date to within 100 years of the autographs (the original writings) and all agree with each other. (Yes, there are minor differences, but there are so many copies available we can look at them and get a very accurate picture of what the New Testament writers said.) What this means is that the Bible is extremely reliable as an historical document.<
There are lots of ancient stories written about from all over with the stories varying only slightly. The Illiad is one example.
While what you say is true, there are well over 5,000 copies of the New Testament in the original Greek. Of the Illiad you mention, we have approximately 600 copies still intact. The fact that of these 600+ copies, there is around a 5% variation (or error rate), leads one to believe they are correct copies. The error rate for New Testament transcripts is closer to 99%. What does that tell you about it’s authenticity? If you take the numbers and add in the translations to other languages, there are over 20,000 copies of the New Testament. Frankly, dismissing it because it is hard to believe is foolish at best, and fearsome in the extreme, at worst.
What???? Please show me a single reference where Pliny, Tacitus or Josephus ever talked about dragons or magical lands.
"Dead Or Alive?" Resurrection, (Part 1 of 8)
"Fact Or Fantasy?" Resurrection, (Part 2 of 8)
"Just The Facts, Ma'am" Resurrection, (Part 3 of 8)
"Even Unto Death" Resurrection, Part (4 of 8)
"Make Your Choice" Resurrection, Part (5 of 8)
"What Has This Got To Do With Death" Resurrection, (Part 6 of 8)
"Hope For The Sting And The Victory" Resurrection, (Part 7 of 8)
"Believing A Lie, Believing The Truth" Resurrection, (Part 8 of 8)
The resurrection of Jesus has been called the linchpin of Christianity. Indeed, even the apostle Paul wrote that if Jesus did not rise from the dead, there was no faith to be had. What incredible words! Some who wrongly dichotomize “faith” and “facts” might expect the apostle to say, “Well, if we find out that Jesus really did not rise, we’ll keep believing it because it brings comfort and besides, what would it do to Christianity?” Yet Paul says, in effect, if Christ is still dead, if he is still in the grave, let’s hang up the whole thing. Eat, drink, and be merry!
No historical event has been so subjected to scrutiny as Jesus’ claim to have risen from the dead. This alone is an indicator of the event’s importance. So many ingenious ways have been concocted to falsify it—from the swoon theory to the disciples’ self-delusion—that it’s almost humorous. I am amazed at the lengths to which some scholars have been willing to go in an attempt to debunk the resurrection, while scores of other religious figures (such as Krishna, Buddha, or Mohammed) have been left totally unstudied. Interestingly enough, an average student in India, for example, does not even know when Krishna was born or if indeed he ever was. At the same time, he or she has theorized about Jesus quite a bit. This is an ironic phenomenon.
Of all His claims, His promise of His resurrection was understandably the most controversial. Yet, to be certain, it was the ultimate justification of His message.
A little off topic, but people have been convicted of murder with less evidence than exists for the risen Christ, and Christianity as a whole.
I am totally convinced that Jesus was the Son of God (and man), and that I am offered eternal life with Him and the Farther. Makes living on this planet, at this time really easy...
5.56mm
You said, in part: There are lots of ancient stories written about from all over with the stories varying only slightly. The Illiad is one example.
***
I don’t think anyone ever believed that The Iliad represented a true account of facts. This is akin to saying that news accounts are not true because fiction is being written today, and sometimes published by the same publishers.
Right now there are suicide bombers training to die in the name of Allah: a god that the Christians reject.
Suicide bombers are not dieing for what they know to be a lie. This sixth argument has always been compelling to me. These were humble men who witnessed these events. They claim to have seen and eaten with the risen Christ and many of them died in ways far more horrible than a suicide bomber does. It is a matter of faith, however.
There are no ancient works which even approach the vast manuscribal holdings of the new testament. Nothing in extant body of Greek or Roman classics even comes close.
What other cultures from this period 1500-1200BC have an account of the children of Atreus beseiging Troy--Iliad?
These historians mentioned the Cult of Christianity and some of it’s beliefs, that’s true. But these people also mention things like dragons, magical lands and curses/hexes.
Which letter of Pliny's mentions dragons, etc? Tacitus Annals? Tacitus is an extra-biblical source that does corroberate that christians were worshipped Jesus (Christus). It was Plato who has Socrates making reference to "Atlantis", if I'm not mistaken.
...but there are still many people who believe Elvis is alive.
I know that many worship Elvis, but we know where his body lies. The Romans could have easily dispelled the "myth" by producing the body, torturing and interrogating the Roman detail responsible for keeping a lid on this. But they did not. It's not clear what treatment befell the Roman guard. My guess is it wasn't pretty.
There are thousands of people who have seen Bigfoot, UFOs and the Loch Ness Monster as well - that doesn’t necessarily mean any of those things exist either...even when they produce pictures, hair samples, burn marks, etc.
Of course none of this discounts the eyewitness testimonies where hundreds shared this experience. Bigfoot sightings are isolated events. UFOs and similar phenomena may have multiple witnesses and justify physical explanation. (We had the "Lights of Phoenix" a few years back. I saw it. I don't know what it was. However, had I seen a resurrected Jesus, that would be unmistakable and hard to explain, if I had witnessed his savage torture and execution.)
Baptism isn’t a new idea. ...The idea of having a sacred meal as a part of a ritual isn’t a new idea either. Gods connected with the harvest were often symbolically “eaten” at rituals honoring them.
The Jews have celebrated the Passover, since leaving Egypt, with a sabath meal.
Yet, if one's favorite is killed and shown to be a fraud, then it would be the height of disillusionment to use Baptism as a from of "recognition" with a resurrected Christ. Nor would there be any legitimate need to change the meaning of the passover meal in "rememberance" of a proven fake. Yet the early eyewitnesses faithfully kept these ordinances and preserved them as instructed by Jesus himself.
Right now there are suicide bombers training to die in the name of Allah: a god that the Christians reject.
The depth of selfish motivation is remarkable. But Jesus said "Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends." Christian martyrs suffer to bring the gospel to a dying world, a world they wish to befriend. Their reward is already earned through Jesus' incomparable work, not any sacrifical act on their part.
Early Christians also tended to blend their religion with older pagan beliefs - pagan temples were converted to Christian Churches, many pagan dieties became “Saints” and pagan practices like the Easter Bunny and Christmas trees were adopted.
This charge is often layed against historial Christianity. It may be true of some Catholic practices, but Protestant christianity ascribes to sola fide, sola gratia, sola scriptura. I am a "saint" (hagios--a "set apart one") as all believers are (Romans 1:7).
I don't ever recall worshipping the easter bunny or incorporating the practice as part of resurrection observance. (Passover is the concurrent religious practice the resurrection answers).
Syncretism worked both ways. The 2nd century worship of Mythras probably borrowed heavily from Christianity. What is known about Mithras is a "mystery!" Not much to go on. (Mithras)
After the Emperor Constantine was baptised on his death bed (after saying prayers to ALL gods, lest he go to hell) that Church leaders took over declaring that Christianity was the official religion of the Empire. Thus getting rid of pagans became the order of the day. Many peasants suddenly found themselves forcefully converted by their governors and aristocratic overlords.
Now this reeks of syncretism (adopting/incorporating existing pagan practices). I can find nothing in the New Testament which condones "getting rid of pagans" or "forcefully converting" them. If you could provide a Bible reference, I'd I have to listen.
How do you know this except by your interpretation of the New Testament writings? In any case, you are treating that story cavalierly. Christian preachers clashed with the LEADERSHIP of the Jews, just as Jesus had. Among the people, some rejected Christ, some accepted him.
They then began preaching to the people in the streets walking by the Synagogue. But even then Christianity didn’t rise. A lot of the Gentiles didn’t want to follow the Jewish law (which was obeyed by the early Christians.) Remember Jesus was a Jew and followed the laws of the Hebrews. It was only after the Council of Jerusalem when Paul argued that Jesus had heralded a “New covenent” with God (meaning that Jewish law no longer had to be followed especially circumcision) that the Church really exploded.
Here you are totally befuddled. And as in the case of Paul proclaiming anything at the "Council of Jerusalem," he did no such thing.
It was then bolstered by city dwellers who considered the new religion fashionable. Early Christians also tended to blend their religion with older pagan beliefs - pagan temples were converted to Christian Churches, many pagan dieties became “Saints” and pagan practices like the Easter Bunny and Christmas trees were adopted. After the Emperor Constantine was baptised on his death bed (after saying prayers to ALL gods, lest he go to hell) that Church leaders took over declaring that Christianity was the official religion of the Empire. Thus getting rid of pagans became the order of the day. Many peasants suddenly found themselves forcefully converted by their governors and aristocratic overlords.
You have managed to telescope the experience of centuries into a few sentance and to mix fact and fancy promiscuously. Yes. by making Christianity the public religion of the empire, Constantine and other princes opened the Church to all sorts of trimmers and opportunists, for people do tend to bow to the dictates of power. But the fact is that by Constantine's time Christianity, despite a savage persecution lasting for more than 50 years was propabaly the most powerful private institution in the Roman Empire, which is why Constantine if only on purely natural grounds alone, became the champion of the Christians.