Posted on 04/05/2007 5:42:47 PM PDT by Utah Girl
Mitt Romney is riding high this week after his victory in "the first primary," which consists of raising cold, hard cash to compete: more than $20 million in the first quarter, $5 million more than his closest contender, Rudy "Lay off my wife!" Giuliani. John McCain came in a lackluster third with $12.5 million.
Romney's campaign benefited from two distinct donor networks, according to media accounts: Wall Street and Mormons. GOP front-runner Rudy, struggling with one of those weird media freak shows erupting around his wife, Judith (her alleged participation in future Cabinet meetings and former puppy killings), must be a little envious on both counts.
Why is it that all the Dem candidates are still married to their first spouse, while among the current crop of leading GOP contenders, the only guy with just one wife is the Mormon?
Truth is, I don't think this is just an accident. There's something about Mormons the rest of us ought to pay attention to: Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints do much better than almost any other faith group at sustaining a marriage culture -- and they do this while participating fully and successfully in modern life. Utah is above the national average in both household income and the proportion of adults who are college graduates.
(Excerpt) Read more at townhall.com ...
As I said to restornu, it seems that the two of you are intent on putting me in some kind of categorical box. In your case I don’t think it’s so that you can attack me but maybe it’s so that you can discount my opinion of the Church by attributing my feelings to a bad personal experience.
I actually answered early on why I left the Mormon Church, but this thread has gotten so huge that I can’t blame you if you missed it.
To satisfy you and restornu, though, and anyone else out there, I will attempt to answer in a little more detail, why I left the Church in my youth, even though it is a difficult thing to do because it is not simple and having to do so brings forth in me a great deal of negative emotion and unpleasant memories that I prefer not to dwell on in my life.
It is not due to any one thing that I left the Church, and it’s not because of “falling into sin” on my part, but it does relate to morality and sin in addition to simply not believing in the very basis or premises of Mormonism.
I mentioned early on that I never really had a great deal of belief in the Church from the start. The only reason I ever went to start with was because my Mother made me go. But when I got involved in Scouting I enjoyed that. (For those who don’t know most Mormon congregations sponsor a Scout troop.) Also some of the kids that I went to Church with and were in Scouts with lived nearby and we went to school together and were friends. Pretty normal. So as time went on even though I didn’t have a great deal of belief in the Church I professed to have a belief because I wanted to fit in and after all I had no choice for most of my youth but to go along with it. I will say, though, that other than Scouting, I found Church it’s self excruciatingly boring.
Jump forward now and I am a young teen and my family had moved to a different area and a different Ward of the Church and while things went on pretty much the same, this other Ward (congregation) had a different character. The Scouting in the new Troop was not nearly so fun, in the new troop it was all about rank and accelerated advancement of rank much more that the hiking and woodsman-ship or even any other “experience” of Scouting like the group gatherings and etc.
Also the new Ward was much more cliquish. There was an “in” crowd that consisted of the sons of the Bishop and his councilors and the rank thing that was an issue in the Scout troop was reflected in the relationship dynamic of we youth in the ward as well, and I being from out of town and kind of a loner by nature, was never really admitted fully into the clique. I’m not saying I was ostracized at that point either, but I always felt a certain invisible barrier between myself and certain others in the group. I still had friends though, but they like me were of the “second rank” in the pecking order.
Also at this time of my life, I was involved in a lot of things other than the Church. I had school of course, I was involved in community theater, and I had a job. So if you combine all those things with all the time I had to spend in Church related activities, you can see that I had a very full platter.
For those that may not know, at least in the Ward I was in and at the time I was in it, Mormon teens had a youth-group to attend one night a week “seminary” before school every day to study the BOM, visiting teaching for boys of priesthood age where you go with an Elder one night a month to “visit” and talk Church stuff with various families you are assigned to. And then there is Church on Sunday which if you were in Priesthood, took up virtually the whole day.
Looking back, I really don’t even know how I did it. I do remember having many nights when I would only get about four hours of sleep. Hell, it’s self, for a teenager.
As time wen’t on and I got into the 16-17 year age group the Church activities got more and more focused on preparing to go on a Mission, where as I’m sure most of you know, young adult Mormons go to some place other than home and proselytize in attempt to bring in new Mormons.
But my “testimony” had never grown. In spite of praying and participating with all my heart, I became more and more incredulous as to the veracity of the BOM or the effectiveness of prayer and could not square the idea of all the ritual with my own budding concept of spirituality that was growing, in a different direction all together, through my independent study of other religions and spiritualities of the world.
Then a thing happened that I can only describe as awful.
There had been a local family brought into the Church, new converts, the whole family together. They had a son who I knew from school and was friend’s with independently of the Church. As it happened this young man confessed a “sin” of a personal nature to either the Bishop or the Leader of the Priests quorum to which we all belonged. I’ll never know which, but the word leaked out to the Bishops son through the leader of the Priests quorum, and at one point shortly after that, when on a Scout camp-out, I happened to overhear the Bishops son spouting out all the details, of the other kids confession, to his clique. They never knew I overheard, but my trust in the leadership of that Ward was shattered forever.
Those, (I have to be careful not to get vulgar) those rotten, yet “holier-than-thou” kids proceeded to mock and embarrass the poor kid who had had the honesty to confess and a short while after that the kid and his whole family left the church, all together, the same way they had come in. Family values don’t you know.
Now, as I said, I was in a position where I was being expected to go on a Mission and the whole idea of bringing new people into a Church I didn’t believe in, literally turned my stomach. So, I finally became honest with my self and simply refused to participate any longer in the sham.
Ending my participation in the Church made me fell better inside my self than I had felt about the whole situation for a couple of years, but it led to a great deal of contention between my Mother and myself a rift in my family that, even after all these years, is only partially healed.
There are other issues in my life that also deal with the actions of other members of my family and their behavior and also with the Church. What I just wrote to you all here, I have never told in such detail to anyone before, it has been difficult, and I will write no more on the subject of my personal life.
I hope that answered your curiosity well enough.
From time to time I hear of an experience such as yours, LR, and it prompts me to continue to rail against what I term the “Mormon Culture.”
Some time back in this discussion, the issue was brought up of what Mormons thought was wrong with the Church. This would be at the top of my list.
This phenomenon predominantly occurs in a few areas, for example Utah and Idaho, where the proportion of members of the LDS Church is particularly high.
It occurs when being a Mormon becomes the socially acceptable, “cool” thing to do, rather than the spiritual pursuit that it should be. Cliques form, and human nature can be displayed at its ugliest.
It appears to me that you fell prey to this unfortunate, and deplorable, occurrence.
It angers me. When fellow Mormons behave in such unChristlike ways, it sullies us all, and it operates to tear down what we labor to build up, like the tide against a sand castle.
The “Mormon Culture” is a far cry from the “Kingdom of God,” and those who participate in it will be among those to whom the Master will say, “Ye knew me not.”
Where you made your (understandable) mistake, LR, was to generalize this regrettable human nature of the people around you to the Church as a whole; I hope that one day you find your way back. Certainly, there are plenty of us out there who would welcome you back.
“The Church is not a country club for the saved; it’s a hospital for sinners.” Unmistakably, there are some hospitals which are more dysfunctional than others; after all, you stated yourself that you had a positive experience in your first ward. I submit to you that such is the norm amongst all too many exceptions.
Best regards.
I shared the story simply to answer why specifically I left the Church when I did.
The underlying reason, though, and why I’ll not ever again participate in Mormonism is because I simply don’t believe in it.
I did not “fall away”, I rejected what I see to be false, walked away from it, and in a spiritual sense, have not looked back.
But you fail to see tantiboh, that in fact your Church makes promises. The leaders of your Chuch are supposedly selected by God, specifically because they are suited for their unique callings/positions. I recieved a patriarchal blessing that made promises to me regarding my eternal family, if I just stayed “true,” and virtuous etc.
Your Chruch is the one who needs to prove itself. It is indeed claiming to be the one and only true Christian restored Chruch of Jesus Christ, since you are telling us you have MORE truth than all others. You proclaim to have a living Prophet that guides your Church, yet as soon as he dies and a new one is in office, you tend to distance yourselves from his God-given revelation. You call your leaders just as fallible as other men....yet on the other hand claim they have more power, and more direct revelation.
These problems with the ‘society’ in the Church are a real problem for a people who claim to be able to work toward perfection, with the ultimate goal of becomiing a god or godess themselves.
You are placed in a position where you must prove your claim. Can you do it with anything except a feeling?
It should say, “Neither you, nor anyone else, should think that I consider the behavior I described as representative of Mormons as a whole.”
While I have made clear that I don’t hold all Mormons responsible for the actions of a few, your point is excellent, and perhaps I should second it.
While it is true that not all Mormons are bad people the issue of the leadership of the Church as being divinely inspired is certainly reflected upon negetively by incidents such as I have recounted.
CC, I hadn’t got around to that bit of our possible common ancestry, but I have no doubt’t that if we don’t share common ancestors, at the very least, our ancestors would have known each other. Perhaps I’ll private message you some time.
Cheers
LR as a former bishop’s son and the 1st councilor of my priests quorum I neither knew, nor would have shared if I had known what those punks shared. If you “Fast forward” in their lives, I’ll bet they are not doing well in society now. Such experiences as you relate seldom produce good members of society no matter the church such things can happen. As for me, I would place the “Blame” on the Bishop for this culture, he shared information with his son that should not have been shared, then stood idly by as his son did his best to ruin lives with it. The Bishop was also responsible for the “Tone” in the scout program as he calls the Scoutmaster. Sounds like this ward had a problem at the top to me. I will also bet there were signs before what you saw that something was wrong.
I am sorry you had such an experience, even though you feel it did not lead to your apostasy, it could have and did drive you further from the church because it was probably difficult to even be around those boys after that.
Let me ask you a couple of questions, if you don’t mind.
Do your parents have testimonies?
Do you consider coming on forums like this and saying things designed to make people question their faith to be a good thing? IF so please explain why.
I personally can’t understand why anyone would do that unless they hated us and you do not seem to.
Um, that post was for LR, no CC
Dang, how’d that happen?
Mormonism placemarker (not Christianity placemearker)
My parents are a complicated issue, maybe later.
As to causing folks to question their faith, that is absolutely a good thing, even the LDS Church says so. Why would anyone want to belong to a faith if they could question it and find it wanting?
Really though, as I posted way back, nothing I’ve posted has been intended to cause people to question their faith. All I’ve done is share my experience and opinions and some info on the Church, it’s culture and it’s veracity. The reason I posted the story I did is because I was specifically asked to. I had hoped to avoid doing so. If that causes some folks to question their faith, so be it. Folks could just consider that a bonus I guess.
Now, I have to go, I'll check back later.
Indeed, CC, sometimes our leaders, particularly at the local level, make mistakes. It shouldn’t matter to a faithful member, however, because Christ is our Master, not the bishop - he’s merely a servant. Still, it can be frustrating for some, like me, that such situations occur.
“You proclaim to have a living Prophet that guides your Church, yet as soon as he dies and a new one is in office, you tend to distance yourselves from his God-given revelation.”
I don’t know what you’re talking about. We study the words of the modern prophets for decades. This year, the official curriculum is the teachings of President Kimball.
“These problems with the ‘society’ in the Church are a real problem for a people who claim to be able to work toward perfection, with the ultimate goal of becomiing a god or godess themselves.”
Yes, it is. I suspect that we’ll reach the end times before that problem is solved.
“You are placed in a position where you must prove your claim. Can you do it with anything except a feeling?”
I don’t have to prove anything. The Holy Ghost does that. I can testify, expound, guide, etc., but in the end, only God can prove to a person that anything the Church teaches is true. It’s up to each of us to seek that proof. God can do His own work. The Gospel isn’t an exercise in forensic debate.
Which is why I don’t engage in scripture-bashing. It doesn’t prove a thing. I learned long ago that a simple testimony is much more effective - if the person is ready to learn, then God provides the proof. The one thing, though, that God cannot do is force us to accept that proof. It is given to us to choose.
And I still have hope that the promises your patriarchal blessing contain are possible. One can never stray too far to return.
That’s all fair. Nevertheless, I fail to see why you persist in actively criticizing the Church.
Please don’t get me wrong, I’m not afraid of questions and debate; but you spend a lot of energy attacking what you have left. For us, the Church and its teachings are a source of great happiness. Why do you continue to try to dissuade us from that?
When the LDS Church proselytes, its approach is one of invitation; we do not, as a rule, go about disproving others’ doctrine and trying to shake their faith in order to achieve our goals. Our approach is to try to help them magnify their faith in a new direction - a process governed chiefly by the quiet testimony of the Holy Ghost.
Yet, by railing against the Church, you seem to have taken the opposite approach, and I just can’t relate to that.
You say,” I fail to see why you persist in actively criticizing the Church.”
Well, fair is fair. I’ve been criticized for years by family members and other members of the Mormon Church. Just this afternoon I am characterized as “apostate”, a term that has a rather derogatory connotation.
This, thread is all about the perception of Mormonism. Just as you are here to defend your religion, I am here to show that there is another side that the Mormons would rather hide.
The fact is that I see the LDS religion as based on lies, and the lies are so apparent to anyone who takes an honest look, that in my opinion, anyone who believes in it has simply been duped.
Now, we have a candidate for president who, if what I propose in the previous paragraph is true. Is either a dupe or dishonest. Not to mention, he’s a RINO.
For me the Mormon Church has been a source of great unhappiness and grief. When this subject cropped up on FR ,I felt it was my duty to show that the image the church puts forth is not what the reality, at least from my experience, proves out to be.
Think, Tantiboh, if you were not a Mormon, and you saw a person running for president that you thought was either dishonest or gullible and did not represent your political beliefs, and belonged to a religion that you had good reason to believe was false, would you not speak out?
Now, I’ve bared a good portion of my soul to folks on this thread. While I compose my next response, I’d like to hear from you what your personal history is and what you consider a simple testimony? Is it just a feeling or do you have more to go on than that? Please be specific.
Sure, I didn’t ask for your history in the first place, but I don’t mind sharing.
“Tantiboh” is a moosh of “tanti,” Italian for “many” and “boh,” a rather uneducated Italian slang term that roughly translates to “I don’t know.” Mostly just a handle I came up with on the fly when I didn’t know what else to type.
My mother was raised in the Church; my father wasn’t. He joined at 18 when they were married. They moved to Wyoming to take over the ranch where I grew up and promptly went inactive. I have two brothers and three sisters.
When I was about 7, my mother started going back to church, and I tagged along. My father started attending again when I was 10 or so. I was baptized at 8 the same day as my sister, who was 12.
My parents have improved a great deal over the years; my father used to be angry and short-tempered, and my mother struggled with this and had her own foibles. I directly attribute the Gospel with helping them both to improve. Still, my younger years do have some unpleasant memories as a result of some of their mistakes.
I did the “good Mormon boy” thing growing up, Eagle Scout, all that. But I was just kind of going with the flow. Finally, at 19, I served as an LDS missionary in Rome.
While I thought and hoped it was true beforehand, my mission was where I truly gained my testimony of the Church. Studying it day by day, and working in its service gave the Spirit room to confirm its truthfulness to me. I began to understand the importance of following its precepts and working to implement Christ’s teachings in my life day by day.
Unlike some, who relate experiences of sudden inner knowledge of the truth of the Gospel, my own certainty was built step by step, piece by piece, questioning everything and learning about it and trying it out until it made sense. That process continues. But I am satisfied that I am in the right place. The Gospel brings me key points of knowledge, such as an understanding of what the purpose of life is, my relationship with God, etc. that I treasure and feel very blessed to have.
The happiness derived therefrom prompts me to seek ways to invite others to share the same joy. When I live my life as I should, I can feel the Holy Ghost in my life, and I know that God is pleased with me. It’s a source of comfort that forms an anchor in my life. Likewise, when I’m not living as I should, the Lord lets me know it, and I have the opportunity to improve. That way, I’m never left in the dark, groping my way through life without comprehension of why I’m doing so.
Along the way, my faith has been shaped and built by amazing experiences; answered prayers; even miracles of healing and other miracles in my life and the lives of those around me that are too private and precious to share lightly. In short, God operates directly in my life, and it’s a powerful confirmation of what I believe.
I have taken the career route of computer programming, because I’m exceedingly good at learning new, unfamiliar concepts and logically analyzing a given problem, as well as integrating the detail within the context of the big picture. I am also blessed with a powerful intelligence. I use both gifts constantly to monitor, question, refine, and even refute my beliefs, as well as to teach others where the opportunity arises. Though it takes a lot of work, I can be convinced I’m wrong. No one and nothing has managed to do so when it comes to the fundamentals of the Gospel and my faith in the nature of the LDS Church.
If I have been lied to, then it is God who is the liar. If I have been duped, then God is the fraud, because I know what I know from the confirming voice of the Spirit. Not because I’m taking someone at their word.
“Think, Tantiboh, if you were not a Mormon, and you saw a person running for president that you thought was either dishonest or gullible and did not represent your political beliefs, and belonged to a religion that you had good reason to believe was false, would you not speak out?”
Nope. Religion should not be a factor. Moral character, political ideals, and personal courage are among those things which should be considered, but religion is not.
Think of it this way, LR. From my perspective, there has never been a president who has belonged to the church that I believe is the correct one. Yet I do not rail against Episcopalians, Methodists, or Catholics when one is elected; neither would I rail against a Jew, a Muslim, or an atheist. Perhaps their religious creed would affect their politics in a way I didn’t like; then I would rail against those points of political disagreement. But there are good people that ascribe to every religious belief, and I would judge a presidential candidate against that yardstick.
A simple testimony, to answer another question of yours, is just a statement of what I believe is true (speaking specifically of spiritual matters). If it is the truth, and the person is prepared to receive it, then the Holy Ghost will bear witness to that person. After that, it is given to the person to choose whether or not to heed that witness. My only role is to give the Holy Ghost a chance to operate.
When I do so, it is not entirely selfless. The Holy Ghost also confirms to me the truth of what I speak, and my testimony is enlarged as a result.
Please see post 878 in response to a question very similar to the final one you posed to me.
“Not to mention, he’s a RINO.”
I disagree. I’m not entirely convinced of his politics - my yardstick is pretty far to the right - but I think labeling Romney as a RINO is inaccurate. He was a governor of a (wildly) liberal state, but did a pretty fine job of stemming the tide against a powerful opposition.
My biggest concern with Romney is his stance on abortion. In my mind, he should have been pro-life all along, and his recent “conversion” has me a little uncomfortable. Still, genuine conversions happen (Reagan’s shift to pro-life, for example), and I tend to be willing to give Romney the benefit of the doubt. If a true rock-ribbed conservative were to pop up, I’d be a very likely backer. None of the “big three” qualify, but Romney is the closest.
One thing I admire about Romney is that everything he touches seems to turn to gold. He understands business, administration, and fiscal policy incredibly well - he promises to be an amazing president from that angle. I don’t know very much about his foreign policy, though I like what little I’ve heard.
But your whole premise for leaving the Church is build all on subjective experience and I am sure in the course of time a need to rationalized to your family.
I am sure you may sincerely felt justified.
What I am trying to say from my observation of your post the situtation you were in was not healthy and I don't blame you.
But in all honesty how many times did you read the Book of Mormon for your own council and I don't mean with a fault finding heart!
If you think you can do a thing or think you can't do a thing, you're right. Henry Ford
How many times as a child did you on your own or had a desire to you kneel and pray to your Heavenly Father in Jesus Name?
You don't need to reply just food for thought!
First off, as too your assertion that there is no evidence of major smelting operations to support a vast network of iron works, I would agree. Besides that fact that American archeology is centuries behind the rest of the world (due to our relatively recent time on this continent compared with the old world)
I would also point out that nowhere in the BOM is there written anything about major iron making endeavors. Let’s look at what the BOM says both about Iron and Steel in the text.
Steel is mentioned only five times in the Book of Mormon, once in the Book of Ether (7.9), and four times in the Nephite records (1 Ne 4.9, 1 Ne 16.18, 2 Ne 5.15 and Jar 1.8). Of these, two refer to Near Eastern weapons of the early sixth century B.C. 1 Ne 4.9 states that the blade of Laban’s sword was “of most precious steel.” Nephi’s Near Eastern bow was “made of fine steel” (1 Ne 16.18). The next two references are to steel among generic metal lists. The first is to the time of Nephi, around 580 B.C.:
“work in all manner of wood, and of iron, and of copper, and of brass, and of steel, and of gold, and of silver, and of precious ores” (2 Ne 5.15)
The second is from Jarom 1.8, around 400 B.C.:
“workmanship of wood, in buildings, and in machinery, and also in iron and copper, and brass and steel, making all manner of tools of every kind to till the ground, and weapons of war—yea, the sharp pointed arrow, and the quiver, and the dart, and the javelin, and all preparations for war”
Note, also, that although Jarom mentions a number of “weapons of war,” this list notably leaves off swords. Rather, it includes “arrow, and the quiver, and the dart, and the javelin.” If iron/steel swords were extensively used by Book of Mormon armies, why are they notably absent from this list of weapons, the only weapon-list that specifically mentions steel?
Also, there are no references to Nephite steel after 400 B.C.
Putting all this together, we find the following:
The steel sword is a Near Eastern weapon. It is imitated by Nephi in the first generation-although we are not sure if this imitation is of function, form or material-or all three.
Steel swords are never again mentioned in the Book of Mormon after this first generation.
Steel is mentioned once more, in 400 B.C., in the list which specifically fails to mention swords, steel or otherwise.
Now, what we know for sure is that Nephi had a steel weapon from the Near East. He attempted to imitate this weapon-whether in function, form, or material is unclear. His descendants apparently abandoned this technology by no later than 400 B.C. Based on a careful reading of the text of the Book of Mormon, there are no grounds for claiming-as anti-Mormons repeatedly do-that the Book of Mormon describes a massive steel industry with thousands of soldiers carrying steel swords in the New World.
Also, it’s interesting to note Nephi’s steel bow (1 Ne 16.18) that he brought with him from Jerusalem. Many scholars and antis insist this is false because there was no iron manufacturing in 600 BC. in the near east. This has been proved false as I will point out later. Some assume this phrase is meant to describe the same weapon that is called a “steel bow” in the KJV Bible. (I think this is obvious whether you think Joseph Smith invented the text or it is ancient.) The phrase “bow of steel” occurs three times in the KJV: 2 Sam 22.35, Job 20.24, and Ps 18.34.
In all cases it translates the Hebrew phrase qeshet nechushah, which modern translations consistently, and correctly, translate as “bronze.” There is one other reference to “steel” in the KJV at Jer 15.12, also referring to bronze. The metal is apparently called “steel” in the KJV because bronze is “steeled” (strengthened) copper through alloying it with tin or through some other process.
Likewise steel did not necessarily mean an iron-making process in Joseph Smith’s day; its base meaning is hard or strong. Among the meanings of “steel” in Webster’s 1828 dictionary is “extreme hardness.” For the verbal form, one of the meanings is “to make hard or extremely hard,” while one of the meanings of “steeled” is “hardened,” “steeliness” means “great hardness,” one of the meanings of “steeling” is “hardening,” and one of the meanings of “steely” is “hard, firm.” The term steel is still used this way in modern English, such as saying someone has “steely eyes” or a “will of steel.” The concept of “steel” (the metal) seems to derive from “steel” meaning hard or strong, not the other way around.
We do know that the Jaredites had iron swords, because when the people of Zarahemla found their old destroyed civilization, they found swords “cankered in rust”. We don’t know how many there were though.
Now to the facts that Iron HAS been found, besides the ones I posted earlier...
In the royal shaft graves at Alaca Hoyuk (Turkey) {circa 2500-2200 B.C.), a roughly nine-inch iron dagger with a gold handle was discovered. Tutankhamun (fourteenth century B.C.) had an iron dagger in his tomb. Applying the anti-Mormon fallacy (that insists a single example necessitates universal use) we would be required to insist that all Near Eastern soldiers from 2300 B.C. to 1300 B.C. had iron daggers.
These two daggers are unique before the eighth century B.C. Furthermore, “iron does not appear to have been produced in Egypt on a large scale until the end of the Third Intermediate Period.”
Thus, the assumption that a single reference to “steel swords” in Ether necessitates that all Jaredite soldiers in all ages had “steel swords” would, if consistently applied to the Near East, likewise require that these two examples of iron daggers mean that all soldiers in the Near East in all ages would have to also have iron daggers. But this was not the case. Critics employing the hyper-skepticism fallacy ignore the concept of elite weapons vs. common weapons and the issue of transformation of weapon types through time.
Imagine if we had not discovered the tomb of Alaca Hoyuk in Turkey, where an iron dagger from the twenty-third century B.C. was found. Imagine, further, that Tut’s tomb had been plundered in antiquity, as had nearly all other pharaonic tombs. The result would be that there would be no archaeological evidence for iron/steel weapons before the eighth century B.C. Yet this would clearly be wrong. There is a single known Bronze Age royal iron dagger in Egypt when all other soldiers had weapons of bronze or flint, and that was discovered by sheer luck. Why should we reject the possibility of the existence of similarly unique or very rare royal metal weapons in Book of Mormon times when most of the commoners used stone weapons? To reject this possibility is blatant anti-Mormon special pleading.
Furthermore, Near Eastern peoples used hematite, magnetite and meteoritic iron, along with other types of iron ore. Did they have different words for what we in modern scientific English would consider different types of iron? As far as I am aware, they did not. Indeed, the earliest Egyptian word for iron was: “bi3 m pet” or “copper from heaven.” That is to say, in archaic times they didn’t even distinguish between copper and iron. For the early Egyptians, iron was a type of copper! Later they used the word “banpi” or “benpi” (which are probably contractions of “bi3 m pet”), and this term lasts until Coptic times in the word “benipe.” Hebrew and other Near Eastern languages are precisely the same. There is only one term for all types of iron in the entire Bible, “barzal,” which is cognate with Aramaic “parzal.” Both of these are derived from the Akkadian “parzillu.”
Thus, anti-Mormons insist that the Book of Mormon must be evaluated on the basis of modern metallurgical terminology and science, which has categories and distinctions completely foreign to ancient peoples such as the ancient Egyptians and Hebrews, who had a single term covering what now is divided into many different categories. If the failure of the Book of Mormon to match modern semantic categories on types of iron proves there were no Nephites, shouldn't’t the failure of the Hebrews and Egyptians to match modern semantic categories likewise demonstrate there were not Hebrews or Egyptians?
Now, having said and posted all that, here are some VERY interesting details of massive amounts of iron found in the new world.
This first one is from:
Olmec Archaeology and Early Mesoamerica, by Christopher Pool - University of Kentucky
“The Olmecs also participated to an unusual degree in the exchange of prestige goods. Literally tons of iron ore in the form of perforated iron cubes and polished mirrors were imported from Chiapas and Oaxaca to San Lorenzo (Agrinnier 1984; Coe and Diehl 1980a; Cyphers and DiCastro 1996; Pires-Ferreira 1976b)
Heres another smelt site, just for fun. Lots of pics here, and iron artifacts. This one is also in Texas.
And the links I promised...
http://www.fairlds.org/Book_of_Mormon/Steel_in_the_Book_of_Mormon.html#enloc12
http://www.cambridge.org/catalogue/catalogue.asp?isbn=9780521783125&ss=exc
I didn’t say you left leave the church at 16, I was talking to liberty. I included you in the post because your experience with fornication at a young age is often typical for people who leave the church, some immediately, others over time due to dwindling faith.
Thanks for sharing more details. The guy that did this to you was pure evil, and although it usually takes 2 to tangle, I see no reason not to take you at your word that you were completely innocent in all this. Guys often are the greater offender and manipulator in situations like this.
The whole point of the post to liberty was asking what his experience was, we’ve heard yours a few times. There are some who do not take Isaiah at his word and think they cannot repent and be fogiven through the power of the atonement... “Though your sins be scarlet, they can be white as snow.”
Quite right, thanks.
Likewise, when I’m not living as I should, the Lord lets me know it, and I have the opportunity to improve. That way, I’m never left in the dark, groping my way through life without comprehension of why I’m doing so.
I can testify to this.
It is like night and day and many things in my life seem to be off line or out of kilter!
I don't like the distance but I am thankful to know the difference!
What a terrible situation! And what a terrible thing, wither it was the Bishop of a Young Men leader that spread such filth. No wonder you were turned off. But you should know that this simply was not the way it is supposed to work. A Bishop (there are thousands and thousands throughout the world.) is not perfect and they all make mistakes. Expecting humanity is something we mortals need to realize. Sorry that this happened.
Now, that said, you mentioned that your testimony never grew despite praying for it. Let me ask a couple more questions...
Did you read the scriptures on a daily basis? Did you sincerely fast and pray for an answer based on that study? Did you do other faith based things like pay tithing, faithfully attend you meetings and other things that were expected?
To me it doesn’t sound like you didn’t like believe our faith, but rather you didn’t have faith. Does that make sense?
Faith can be a funny thing. Some get it pretty quickly, (like restornu) others have to work for it and prove to the Lord that they will do what it takes to get a dispensation from God.
Ether, a prophet in the BOM tell us that we receive no witness until AFTER the trial of our faith.
And Hebrew 11 (the whole chapter) is an excellent resource for why we do not receive the blessing of God until after we excercise mighty faith.
I wish you well on your journey, wherever that may be taking you. I’m sorry you had such dufases for leaders at a critical time of your life, but it’s certainly not the norm.
All the best!
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