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To: lag along

"Just how do you imagine that everyone would have a nuke? Why not a M1A1, or a 155 howitzer. The nuke argument is a bit Gorelike."

Free speech is not unlimited.
Can you sell child porn? No. Think you should be able to?
Can you sell porn to children? No. Why not?
Can you show fornication on the airwaves at 6 PM? No. Why not?
Can you broadcast military secrets? No. National security trumps free speech, always has. And unless we want the Constitution to be a suicide pact, it had better.
Can you falsely advertise your product? That's free speech alright, but it's also fraud. And free speech does not trump the right to not be defrauded.
Can you slander someone else in the press? That's free speech and the free press, and it's illegal. Free speech does not go so far as to printing deliberate untruths to damage somebody else. And it never has.

Free religion? Sure, people can be Islamists and believe in jihad, but those are just words. Can neo-pagans practice human sacrifice? No. There are limits on freedom of religion. Can Amerindians take peyote buds in their traditional ceremonies? No. The drug laws trump. There are limits on freedom of religion. Can neo-pagans recreate the temple prostitute cults of the East? No. There are limits on freedom of religion.

Speech is limited of necessity.
Religion is limited of necessity.

The right to be free of unreasonable searches and seizures does not mean that the police cannot search private property to get dangerous and incriminating things there. It means that they have to follow process.

The right to not testify against yourself applies only at a CRIMINAL trial. OJ couldn't be forced to testify when he was on trial for his life, but his failure to testify COULD be held against him when he was on trial for his MONEY in the civil trial afterwards. The right against self-incrimination is not absolute. It's a matter of defining what "incrimination" means. We have defined it narrowly, rather than broadly.

The weapons of mass destruction issue is not "Gorelike". If nuclear weapons possession were a universal right, they would be a lot cheaper. But forget the nukes, let's just talk about anthrax, or gigantic fertilizer bombs. There are plenty of deadly WMD which can be put together without the budget of a small state. The Oklahoma City bombers managed to do it with very low tech and caused tremendous damage and death.

There are of necessity limits on individual possession of weapons to, and those limits cannot sanely be whatever any individual decides he wants, for whatever purpose. Firearms for personal defense? That makes sense. WMD are not firearms for personal defense. They are mass-casualty weapons. There is no individual right to inflict mass casualties on the neighborhood even in one's own defense, and therefore there cannot be any personal right to possess weapons with the capacity to do that. There are plenty of insane, sucidial people out there who cook off every year and take out 5 or ten people before killing themselves. Happens every year in just about every major metropolis. Have no laws to stop people from building simple, huge fertilizer bombs, and the death tolls will be in the hundreds from every such incident. The Unabomber certainly could have build dirty bombs if he could have easily gotten the materials, and if everybody has an unlimited right to any sort of weapons at all, those materials are going to be easy and relatively cheap to get. Germs are even easier and cheaper to get.
Let people walk up to the President with guns, and you are going to go through a lot of Presidents.
It's just the way the world is, and we all know it.

That is why the right to keep and bear arms, too, must be reasonably limited. It's a right to individual self-defense, and to collective defense against tyranny. It is NOT an individual right to insurrection against the government or the neighborhood. It means guns, with reasonable restrictions concomitant with national security needs (as in: no, you CANNOT take a gun anywhere near the President, and no, you CANNOT take a gun into Congress or the Courts. There are armed officers there to protect YOU, and it's a small enough space that the police CAN effectively protect people (unlike the big old world), so if you're taking a gun in there, you have the possibility of doing dramatically nefarious things that destabilize the whole country. The Right to Keep and Bear Arms is not infringed by refusing people the right to have WMD or make bombs, or to pack heat in the Capitol Building.

All rights have to have reasonable limitations on them.
And they all do, of necessity.

The most worrying thing on the right is when people don't have any sense of this and press for an absolutist position on weapons which would, in fact, result in chaos.

The 2nd Amendment means a personal right to FIREARMS, subject to necessary regulations. It means law abiding citizens can carry. The right does not extend to convicted felons. It does not extend to WMD or heavy military weapons. It can't. The carnage would be too great, swiftly.


121 posted on 03/27/2007 12:08:14 PM PDT by Vicomte13 (Le chien aboie; la caravane passe.)
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To: Vicomte13
Sell is commercial conduct not free speech and regulated by state law retained by the states and not granted to the federal government.
Fornication is shown on the airways every minute of the day. Check your cable, dish, direct tv.
Treason is set out in Article III section 3 of the Constitution .It is separate and distinct from the 1st amendment and apparently not applicable to the new york times and their sources.

Advertising products is commerical and there are state laws against fraud as well as other crimes.

The states have slander and libel laws and they never gave up that right to the federal government. Certainly those are civil issues and handled privately not by the state criminal codes.

There are no limits on freedom of religion set out in the constitution. As you say, there have been state criminal laws set in place that do punish those who otherwise might find them part of their ritual.

The IV amendment to the constitution governs search and arrests. "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, paper, and effects shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported bu oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized." It more than a mere process it is a basic guarantee, while sadly weakened by supreme court rulings, of freedom that the people never granted to the federal or state governments.

The 5th amendment regarding testimony against oneself applies to any proceeding civil and criminal, trial or investigation, and congressional hearings. In OJ's case he had already been found not guilty on the criminal charges which is the difference. Else wise all criminal proceedings would first start with a simple civil lawsuit and civil discovery rules.

< Lived 90 miles from OKC at the time and it was horrific. OK has a small enough population that all of us had some connection to people killed and injured. Do you suppose McVey gave any consideration to the murdered or that he would follow a fertilizer law? Your posisitioon is Gorelike in that you are presupposing that the right to carry will create a proliferation of WMD's. I have not ever read where a licensed or permit holder has done that.


And criminal laws will keep the bad guys from having guns and these other nasty weapons?.
Did the person who shot president Reagan have a permit to carry a gun. Did the laws against having a gun protect the president?
The way the world is is just the reason to not limit the right to bear arms.
Where do you find the right to fight against tyranny is a collective right.
Individual and even collective actions against the government is called treason unless it prospers.
No Guns in courts worked well for those in that courtroom in Atlanta.
Rights are inalienable and not granted to either the states or the federal government except as specifically enumerated in the constitution>
T he most worrisome thing is to expect that citizens will somehow be more abusive with weapons than are the thugs, terrorists, gangs, etc who have no concern for the law or your rights.
Convicted felons lose quite a number of their rights including the right to vote but will these felons respect the law.

We are all endowed by our creator with certain inalienable Rights; every time we the people consent to the government impinging on these rights is a loss of liberty.
213 posted on 03/27/2007 4:57:52 PM PDT by lag along
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