Marine unit ordered out of Afghanistan

WASHINGTON - Marines accused of shooting and killing civilians after a suicide bombing in Afghanistan are under U.S. investigation, and their entire unit has been ordered to leave the country, officials said Friday.

Army Maj. Gen. Francis H. Kearney III, head of Special Operations Command Central, ordered the unit of about 120 Marines out of Afghanistan and initiated an investigation into the March 4 incident, said Lt. Col. Lou Leto, spokesman at Kearney's command headquarters in Tampa, Fla.

It is highly unusual for any combat unit, either special operations or conventional, to have its mission cut short.

A spokesman for the Marine unit, Maj. Cliff Gilmore, said it is in the process of leaving Afghanistan, but he declined to provide details on the timing and new location, citing a need for security.

In the March 4 incident in Nangahar province, an explosives-rigged minivan crashed into a convoy of Marines that U.S. officials said also came under fire from gunmen. As many as 10 Afghans were killed and 34 wounded as the convoy made an escape. Injured Afghans said the Americans fired on civilian cars and pedestrians as they sped away.

U.S. military officials said militant gunmen shot at Marines and may have caused some of the civilian casualties.

President Hamid Karzai condemned the incident, which was one among several involving U.S. forces in which civilians were killed and injured.

Leto, the spokesman at Special Operations Command Central headquarters, said the Marines, after being ambushed, responded in a way that created "perceptions (that) have really damaged the relationship between the local population and this unit."

Therefore, he said, "the general felt it was best to move them out of that area."

Gilmore said the Marine company would complete its overseas deployment with the 26th Marine Expeditionary Unit, which is the larger unit it sailed with from Camp Lejeune, N.C., in January, but it will no longer operate in Afghanistan.

Of the four Marine Special Operations Command companies that have been established since the command was created in February 2006, the one ordered out of Afghanistan was the first to deploy abroad, Gilmore said. By September 2008 there are to be nine companies operating as part of two special operations battalions, he said.

For years the Marines resisted creating special operations units, arguing that would run counter to their philosophy of viewing all Marines as elite fighters and not singling out elements as special. But former Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld pressed them to establish a separate command — the Marine Special Operations Command — to train and equip forces for the multi-service Special Operations Command.

There are about 25,000 U.S. troops in Afghanistan, mostly conventional combat forces and support units.

Below comments received via email germane:

ALCON:

Admin note first. I've received far too many EMails on this subject today to be able to respond to everyone..."slow I-Net system" over here just will not allow it. So please permit me to use this already well-discussed thread to address many of you...both open as "To" adees as well as several key folks open Bcc. Additionally, I'm asking Marlene to share this with the FULL WAYMOR Inc List.

I have been following this issue the best I can since it was first reported in early March. Many seem to think that since I'm over here, I have the inside track on such issues. Not at all the case in that by virtue of being down here in the Southern AO, we are, in many respects, in "another world" from the events that go on up Kabul way...and for the most part...that's a good thing!

I have NO definitive info on this, and some of you, in fact, may have more straight skinny on it than I. That said, however, bear with me thru a few observations/comments/out loud thinking/etc.

As with other such issues, where POSSIBLE wrong-doing has been aligned with our Marines (and other service members), I continue to observe THREE Camps forming. Generally speaking, there's one that says to hell with whatever they did...they're in a war...leave them alone and let them fight and IF "innocents" get in the way...too bad. Another (much smaller) group shows a swing to the opposite side...wanting a full investigation and the bringing of any "guilty parties" to justice...whatever that might take and whatever that might mean. The third group (of which I'm one) is a blend of the first two (but certainly more aligned with the first group than the second)...realizing that:

1. While we too want to know what's behind this, we weren't there when the ambush went down, so we don't really know what happened...just as do the folks now looking into it NOT know what really happened and probably never will...WE understand the FOG OF WAR!

2. Since many of us are combat vets who have dealt with insurgent forces before, we know all-too-well that they fully orchestrated this ambush to cause collateral damage to personnel and property IF even the most proper of counter-ambush actions were taken against the attackers. They set up all along the route (in both directions) and fired at the vehicles from among "innocent civilians." Further, that they have made the most from the Information Operations aspect of the event...they being much better at IO than we...rallying post-event support against the Marine force (U.S. in general)...bringing pressure against Karzai...etc.

3. There are those in the Special Operations community who do NOT want the Marine Corps involved as a player, and will use this event and following accusations/actions as an "I told you so." I know this to be a fact because I've been involved with the overall evolution from the very first meetings (Maj Jim Capers, myself and other "old Force Recon Marines" were invited to these meetings chaired by Quantico types looking into USMC involvement in SOF integration)...etc. Most of us have had our reservations about the entry of the Corps into SOF spectrum from the beginning, so we've watched this effort very closely...not listening just to those "singing the school song" on the issue and listening very closely to what others in the SOF community have been saying about not wanting Marines involved...etc. There is ALREADY much talk going on about this w/in the "anti" groups.

4. There are already numerous stories and tons of speculation going on about this, so folks have a cafeteria style menu to pick and choose from with regard to what they will want to believe...position they want to take...etc.

OK...so...there MAY have been some improper actions taken by the Marines...easy to say that after the fact when one wasn't there and getting shot at! The Marine force MAY have (as some comments I've heard) come into country "with an ATTITUDE"...not an uncommon trait for Marines and especially "special operators"...most open here know what I mean.... There MAY have been some slow/imprecise reporting of the incident in that nearly all such initial reports are either inaccurate, incomplete or both...and on and on and on....

WHATEVER the case, and as it eventually pans out, the U.S. "powers to be" should have NEVER sent the Marine Company packing out of country...an absolutely WRONG move...sending the WRONG message to the bad guys...etc....! Altho Al West and I have noted some positive change over here, as of late (but we still have the Spring ahead of us with the Taliban coming out of the mountains), I for one (and believe Al is in sync with me on this) remain very concerned w/re to senior leadership (Col & GenOff) over here...the PC BS approach to warfighting...etc. We are hoping Gen Dan McNeil USA will be able to turn much of this half-hearted effort around!

BOTTOM LINE...we (the institutional "we"...not those of us who know the deal) simply continue to shoot ourselves in the foot! Again, this action, when coupled with the recent release of Talib prisoners in exchange of the Italian journalist, sends a totally WRONG message to the bad guys...fully seen by them as a great weakness on our part...and sadly, it would seem they're right...!

Thanks for bearing with me on this. Some may disagree, but....

Semper Fidelis from the Sands of Kandahar,

Wayne V. Morris
Col USMC (Ret)

Great email, font. Allow me to throw in my $0.02.

1. While we too want to know what's behind this, we weren't there when the ambush went down, so we don't really know what happened...just as do the folks now looking into it NOT know what really happened and probably never will...WE understand the FOG OF WAR!

This can't be stressed enough. There's no CSI type investigation that will ever wrap up exactly what happened. The pressure of an exploding SVBIED wipes clean everything in your mind but your training and instinct. Hopefully, the better part of the former is able to keep the darker parts of the latter in check. In truth, it's almost impossible for anyone who wasn't there to know if the Marines acted appropriately. It's hard enough to know for those that were.

Absent any clear and unmistakable evidence to the contrary, trying to second guess what happened is an exercise in futility.

2. Since many of us are combat vets who have dealt with insurgent forces before, we know all-too-well that they fully orchestrated this ambush to cause collateral damage to personnel and property IF even the most proper of counter-ambush actions were taken against the attackers...Further, that they have made the most from the Information Operations aspect of the event...they being much better at IO than we...rallying post-event support against the Marine force (U.S. in general)...bringing pressure against Karzai...etc.

The point that the enemy does this on purpose should be factored heavily in such events. Marines don't go on wild killing sprees. They do fight back if provoked, as opposed to Army convoys that are generally directed to break contact and keep moving. While the Army tactic sends the wrong message to the enemy, it also pretty much eliminates the chance of a setup for IO purposes. The Marine tactic is appropriately aggressive, but is often poorly considered.

IEDs are remotely triggered, and small arms fire is often initiated from, civilian positions. The insurgents then either fall back or melt away, leaving no clear enemy to engage. It does leave a lot of civilians around, ready to soak up the damage and cause an incident. Was this such a trap? It looks like it. Still, taking the bait may prove to be more trouble than they first though.

The Army may not seem as brave to break contact, but in this case, discretion may be the better part of valor. Neither JAG, the military senior leadership, the U.S. media, or any other figure in authority is going to have your back if things go wrong. In that sense, the Corps may need to change how they do business, or find itself increasingly isolated and threatened from it's own support structure.

3. There are those in the Special Operations community who do NOT want the Marine Corps involved as a player, and will use this event and following accusations/actions as an "I told you so." ...

While I am deeply in the "No Corps in SOF" camp, I don't think we can yet know if this is a fair criticism. I'll tell you why many think it is already, though. I've observed dozens and dozens of raids, and seen reports on ten times that. No one in the SOF community (Rangers notwithstanding) would have racked up this kind of body count countering an ambush. Call it finesse or discretion, but SOF types have a very low incidence of causing civilian casualties. To have a Marine SOF company right out the gate wind up with such a bloody toll is precisely what a lot of folks are worried about.

There's a deep stereotype that the Marines only want into the SOF community because it's cool, and everyone else is doing it. This sort of thing doesn't assuage the concerns of those who think that they're too gung ho and aggressive to appreciate the political sensitivity and delicacy of SOF operations. Again, I don't know if that's a fair criticism yet, since this is all very preliminary. But it reflects poorly, and that will generate talk.

Taliban Switch to Media Based Tactics

March 6, 2007: The Taliban are talking less about their field forces, which took a big beating last year, and are off to an equally dismal start this year, and are emphasizing suicide bombers instead. While the Taliban have been using suicide bombers a lot more, they have not changed the military situation. The Taliban are still unable to take back control of anything. What the suicide bombers have done is made more Afghans anti-Taliban. That's because most of the casualties from these attacks are Afghans, often women and children. Last year, about a quarter of the 4,000 dead Afghans were civilians, mostly victims of Taliban suicide bombers, or intimidation attacks. A new tactic is to use a suicide car bomber against military convoys, and follow it up with gunfire. If you do this in a town, with lots of civilians around, you can claim that the civilians were killed by the panicked gunfire of the foreign soldiers. This sort of thing is popular with local and foreign journalists. It doesn't have to be true, just plausible, and Taliban publicists know how to run with that kind of story. The Taliban may not be able to handle foreign troops, but they are masters when it comes to manipulating foreign journalists. This marks a step back for the Taliban. In this kind of war, you start out small, looking for propaganda victories, then advance to combat that uses units of troops wandering around. Because of their failures last year, the Taliban are backing off the troop unit angle, and moving back to terror attacks and hustling journalists.

The good news is that these Marines are alive to redeploy.

The bad news is that the Taliban has mastered Information Operations to the point where they can take out a company of 120 Special Operations Marines non-kinetically, and possibly cause the whole MARSOC to be disbanded.

There used to be an Airborne Regiment in Canada. Anybody remember why there isn't anymore?

Failure to conduct counter-propaganda degrades our combat power.

Cannoneer No. 4 nailed it exactly right -

IMPO - There is a need for MARSOC - There is without a doubt a role for them to play in the WOT, their capabilities along with their aggression....We have enough play it white types in the SOF community (who do a hell of a job...but there's enough of them)...And the reality is we have a couple of very successful JSOC TFs whom are so successful because they turn the quickest OODA loops....from Intel to pulling triggers (and that pulling triggers part is F'ing crucial....people can talk all the BS hyperbole they want, that, that isn't so....but it is).

Pulling these MARSOC warriors out of Stan is flat as$ stupidity. We need more real shooters in Stan...not less...(perhaps they moved them out of Stan....to the Pak side of the border! Now, if that's the case!&!&...I'll take back my stupidity comment).

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