Thank you for your intelligent, quality post. If you decide to have a ping list, please add me to it.
I suppose you would call me a Wall Street Journal Republican. I think of illegal immigrants as people who are struggling for a better life by going through incredible hardships to get here, and then doing the most menial jobs, ones that Americans have largely abandoned.
Although I understand and respect many people who do not share my position - which includes most of FR - I think it's a big stretch to lump illegal immigrants in with thieves, murders and rapists.
I lived in Los Angeles for most of my life, and left because I lost my job and couldn't afford to keep my house :-(. I wish I was still there, but a friend found me a job in Pennsylvania, and here I am. I'm absolutely miserable here, and one reason is that there is no dynamism. What happened yesterday is what happens today and will happen tomorrow. Illegal immigrants add spice and dynamism to society. If there's one thing worse than overpopulation thanks to illegal immigrants, it's underpopulation thanks to nobody caring anymore.
During my time in Los Angeles, I have never -- repeat -- never -- had any trouble with illegals. Their presence helps business grow that could not otherwise afford to exist. The very company I worked for almost certainly (I never checked anyone's papers) owed its existance to the hard work of illegals, and it also employed many true-blue Americans at good wages(*).
Illegals cause problems but also create opportunities. I think the opportunities are greater than the problems, and I gather Rudy Giuliani agrees with me.
So I think you can say we have a reasonable disagreement on that particular issue.
'Concerning the abortion and gun control issues, I've made a point in my posts that nobody's made a satisfactory response to. I just plain don't believe that Rudy or any other President is going to waste time on these issues, and so regardless of how I stand on them I will not base my support or opposition to a candidate on her or his positions on them. For this reason, I'm just not sure why people make such a fuss about them. President Bush, for example, is against abortion, but has he made a single move to change the law? Rudy Giuliani is for abortion, but I'd be shocked if he would mention the word even once as President.
Why do we waste our time asking about issues that are never going to come up?
Finally, I think it would be remiss if I didn't address our pal Bernie. From what I can see, he was apparently quite a capable police commissioner, and the previous people in the job fell flat on their faces. So maybe he wasn't such a bad appointment after all, on the whole.
I guess he did some Bad Things, too. But did he and Rudy Giuliani not work hard and well to clean up NYC? He's paid his fine and made up for his mistakes. Now he can't work for government again. Justice has been served. The End.
I wonder how many completely honest people there are in government. I think most freepers would answer that question with a derisive laugh and a snort. And in that case, again, if we strike a balance through Rudy's record, it looks overwhelmingly positive. He did great things while in power.
How many of his opponents can say that?
D
(*) Incidentally, all our employees were legally on payroll and got the usual employment benefits, including workers' comp. So in the case of our specific business, you can't use the argument that their health costs were subsidized.
You don't get it, do you?
A President Giuliani might not have to spend more than five minutes on legislation regarding these issues - long enough to either sign it or veto it.
The point is, his choice of actions determines whether a renewal of the assault weapons ban or a revocation of the PBA ban requires a simple majority or a 2/3rds supermajority. THAT is why who sits in the Oval Office is a big deal for those issues.
Hey, when did you leave CA for PA and why do you not like it? I guess that question would be better in freepmail. I lived in CA for over 40 years myself and we moved to PA for better educational opportunities for my daughter, who is deaf, closer to my stepdaughter, my husband's health and the cost of living compared to CA.
I have to say, I absolutely love PA but then I'm one who could probably live most anywhere. I'm about 3 hours from PGH and I think that is a great city. Got a daughter at Slippery Rock U now. I'm also close to DC (2.5 hours) and Philly if I should choose to go there.
I need to go look up Dynamism now :) but give it some time here; you may change your mind. There is also a PA ping list if you want to start getting into that.
Now ... your statements on illegals. Since I too came from an agricultural area of CA, I see your point. I too never had any problems with illegals except for one thing...when we bought our new home in Camarillo, some contractors had illegals pouring hardscape and doing landscape and we had a couple things missing. Their driving habits left much to be desired.
I hope you end up enjoying PA and getting to know all this beautiful state has to offer. Go to Somerset County and see the United 93 memorial now; it's worth it.
Many misguided FReepers keep repeating this canard that the President doesn't have much to do with the Abortion issue. That statement is simply FALSE.
Let's review SOME of what each President has done for or against abortion from Reagan to Bush II:
President Ronald Reagan 1981-1989:
“My administration is dedicated to the preservation of America as a free land, and there is no cause more important for preserving that freedom than affirming the transcendent right to life of all human beings, the right without which no other rights have meaning.” -President Ronald Reagan
- President Reagan supported legislation to challenge Roe v. Wade, the 1973 Supreme Court decision that legalized abortion on demand.
- President Reagan adopted the “Mexico City Policy,” which cut off U.S. foreign aid funds to private organizations that performed and promoted abortion overseas.
- The Reagan Administration cut off funding to the United Nations Fund for Population Activities (UNFPA) because that agency violated U.S. law by participating in China’s compulsory abortion program.
- The Reagan Administration adopted regulations to prohibit federally funded “family planning” clinics from promoting abortion as a method of birth control.
- The Reagan Administration blocked the use of federal funds for research using tissue from aborted babies.
- The Reagan Administration helped win enactment of the Danforth Amendment which established that federally funded education institutions are not guilty of “sex discrimination” if they refuse to pay for abortions.
- President Reagan introduced the topic of fetal pain into public debate.
- The Reagan Administration played a key role in enactment of legislation to protect the right to life of handicapped newborns and signed the legislation into law.
- President Reagan designated a National Sanctity of Human Life Day in recognition of the value of human life at all stages. President Reagan wrote a book entitled Abortion and the Conscience of a Nation, in which he made the case against legal abortion and in favor of overturning Roe v. Wade.
President George H. W. Bush 1989-1993
“Since 1973, there have been about 20 million abortions. This a tragedy of shattering proportions.”“The Supreme Court’s decision in Roe v. Wade was wrongly decided and should be overturned.” -President George H.W. Bush
- The Bush Administration urged the Supreme Court to overturn Roe v. Wade and allow states to pass laws to protect unborn children, stating “protection of innocent human life -- in or out of the womb -- is certainly the most compelling interest that a State can advance.”
- President Bush opposed the “Freedom of Choice Act,” a bill which, he said, “would impose on all 50 states an unprecedented regime of abortion on demand, going well beyond Roe v. Wade.” The President pledged, “It will not become law as long as I am President of the United States.” President Bush vowed, “I will veto any legislation that weakens current law or existing regulations” pertaining to abortion. He vetoed 10 bills that contained proabortion provisions, including four appropriations bills which allowed for taxpayer funding of abortion.
- President Bush vetoed U.S. funding of the UNFPA, citing the agency’s participation in the management of China’s forced abortion program.
- President Bush strongly defended the “Mexico City Policy,” which cut off U.S. foreign aid funds to private organizations that performed and promoted abortion overseas. Three separate legal challenges to the policy by pro-abortion organizations were defeated by the Administration in federal courts.
- President Bush prohibited 4,000 federally funded family planning clinics from counseling and referring for abortions.
- President Bush steadfastly refused to fund research that encouraged or depended on abortion, including transplantation of tissues harvested from aborted babies.
- The Bush Administration prohibited personal importation of the French abortion pill, RU-486.
- The Bush Administration prohibited the performance of abortion on U.S. military bases, except to save the mother’s life and fought Congressional attempts to reverse this policy.
President William Clinton 1993-2001
President Bill Clinton said he has “always been pro-choice” and has “never wavered” in his “support for Roe v. Wade.” “I have believed in the rule of Roe v. Wade for 20 years since I used to teach it in law school.”
- President Clinton urged the Supreme Court to uphold Roe v. Wade.
- The Clinton Administration endorsed the socalled “Freedom of Choice Act,” (a bill to prohibit states from limiting abortion even if Roe v. Wade is overturned). FOCA was defeated in Congress.
- The Clinton Administration urged Congress to make abortion a part of a mandatory national health insurance “benefits package,” forcing all taxpayers to pay for virtually all abortions. The Clinton Health Care legislation died in Congress.
- President Clinton unsuccessfully attempted to repeal the Hyde Amendment, the law that prohibits federal funding of abortion except in rare cases.
- President Clinton twice used his veto to kill legislation that would have placed a national ban on partial-birth abortions. President Clinton ordered federally funded family planning clinics to counsel and refer for abortion.
- The Clinton Administration ordered federal funding of experiments using tissue from aborted babies. President Clinton’s appointees proposed using federal funds for research in which human embryos would be killed.
- President Clinton ordered U.S. military facilities to provide abortions. President Clinton ordered his appointees to facilitate the introduction of RU 486 in the U.S.
- The Clinton Administration resumed funding to the pro-abortion UNFPA, which participates in management of China’s forced abortion program.
- President Clinton restored U.S. funding to pro-abortion organizations in foreign nations. His administration declared abortion to be a “fundamental right of all women,” and ordered U.S. ambassadors to lobby foreign governments for abortion.
- The Clinton Administration’s representatives to the United Nations and to U.N. meetings worked to establish an international “right” to abortion.
President George W. Bush 2001-Present
“The promises of our Declaration of Independence are not just for the strong, the independent, or the healthy. They are for everyone -- including unborn children. We are a society with enough compassion and wealth and love to care for both mothers and their children, to see the promise and potential in every human life.” -President George W. Bush
- During his first week in office, President Bush reinstated the Mexico City Policy, which prevents tax funds from being given to organizations that perform and promote abortion overseas. He threatened to veto an appropriations bill unless a provision overturning the policy was removed.
- President Bush declared that federal funds will not be used for stem cell research that would require the destruction of human embryos. His threat of a veto stopped an attempt in the U.S. Senate to provide funding for such research.
- President Bush has stopped many anti-life initiatives by threatening vetoes -- including proposals to allow abortion to be covered in federal employees’ health insurance plans, and allow abortions to be performed in U.S. military medical facilities and within the federal prison system.
- The Bush Administration ruled that federally controlled substances cannot be used to assist suicides. When the decision was overturned in federal district court, the Administration appealed the case.
- President Bush has strongly backed a U.S. ban on human cloning and helped defeat a “clone and kill” proposal in 2001.
- President Bush has helped win U.S. House approval of pro-life measures including the Child Custody Protection Act and the Abortion Non-Discrimination Act.
- President Bush promoted and signed the Born-Alive Infants Protection Act, which protects all infants born alive, including those who survive abortion.
- The Bush Administration’s representatives to the United Nations and to UN meetings and conferences have fought repeated efforts to establish an international “right” to abortion. President Bush promoted and signed the Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act, which bans the use of the gruesome partial-birth abortion procedure.
- President Bush supported and signed into law the Unborn Victims of Violence Act, which recognizes unborn children as victims of violent federal crimes.
This utterly disproves the false notion that the President never "wastes time" on the abortion issue or that he has no power at all one way or the other.
So, if any more FReepers make the same false argument that the President has little to do with the abortion issue, then they're going to get a copy of this posted in response.
And given Giuliani's past behavior on this issue, conservatives can only shudder to imagine what his record would be if he can fool enough voters into electing him to office.
I don’t disagree with the fact that they want a better life, certainly Mexico and many places in South America leave a lot to be desired in the way of opportunity and career growth. Also, I have seen the poverty and squalor in which many of them live. It’s not much different than the poverty and squalor many of our immigrant relatives lived in before they came to the US. The difference is that, for most of us, our relatives emigrated here legally. America is an immigrant nation whose past is filled with the contributions of immigrants from every walk of life. To say that we don’t want or need immigration is absurd at its core. But, what most of us desire is that the immigrants come here legally. I for one think Americans should be honored anytime someone abandons their home country to relocate to ours; they pay us a huge compliment. But, more than anything else I can imagine, those immigrants coming to America must come here legally. When someone breaks into your house, they have committed a felony crime of breaking and entering. America is our home, and these people are coming in uninvited. Living in poverty simply doesn’t justify the wholesale violation that is occurring on a massive scale.
I think it's a big stretch to lump illegal immigrants in with thieves, murders and rapists.
I don’t. Thieves, murderers and rapists are as much criminals as illegal immigrants. In fact, violating our national sovereignty, for many, is only the beginning of their crime spree. Many have gone on to become thieves, rapists and murderers as well as drug runners and minor thugs. We can adequately grow our own supply of those types of folks, we don’t need them coming from outside of America to set up shop here. Granted, the vast majority are not thieves, rapists and murderers, they are just in my house without my permission. The fundamental criminal offense still exists. However, even for the vast majority of illegals, the crime spree doesn’t stop there. They must acquire documents that allow them to work. Social Security cards and/or drivers licenses are either stolen directly by the illegal, or they are purchased from someone else who stole them, or they are purchased from someone who forged them. So, the very people who just came here to make a better life for themselves and/or their families, are now supporting and supplementing additional criminal enterprises.
Illegals cause problems but also create opportunities.
Yes, they do. They create opportunities for “coyotes”, document forgers, sex slave traders, exploiters, bilingual teachers, bilingual doctors and nurses, drug kingpins, etc. That’s probably not what you meant, but it is a fact of life for the majority. They live in the shadows and are afraid to complain to the police for fear that they will be arrested and deported (how is coming here better for them?). Also, they come here demanding that we accommodate them. Many make little or no effort to learn our language or our customs and try to assimilate. Instead, they take space in our schools and demand bilingual education because they are too lazy to learn our language. They have burdened public health facilities to the extent that many clinics and taxpayer supported hospitals have had to close due to being driven bankrupt by illegals. Even Mexican health facilities on the border will send uninsured patients across the border to the US for treatment so that they don’t have to absorb those costs. Despite the whining stories of the MSM, not all illegals come here to tend lawns, wash dishes, bus tables or perform other functions that “Americans” won’t do. That’s totally untrue. After the Swift raid, how many people showed up to apply for their jobs? If I recall correctly, it was something like 3,000 Americans who showed up to apply for those jobs that Americans won’t do. And, in increasing numbers today, many of those sneaking across the border are bookkeepers, accountants, teachers and pharmacists. I haven’t heard of any Americans unwilling to do those jobs.
Rudy Giuliani is for abortion, but I'd be shocked if he would mention the word even once as President.
I would, too. But the crux of the issue isn’t necessarily about his direct, hands-on association with abortion, it’s about his ability to affect it indirectly, as well as other critical issues, that raise the concern about his public/private position. Because, whomever is elected in ’08 will get to make more SCOTUS appointments and, therein, is where many of these issues reside. Giuliani, as president, wouldn’t have to directly address the issue of Roe v. Wade, he could leave his mark via whatever SCOTUS appointments he might be able to make and get approved through the Senate. This is why the personal preferences of the president matter a great deal. President Bush didn’t directly tackle abortion, but his two SCOTUS nominees will do that for him, should the issue come before the court again. Clinton didn’t have to acknowledge that he was a raving fan of socialism and judicial activism, he let his judicial nominees do that on his behalf. Looking at the many screwy rulings coming off of the bench, it doesn’t take a great deal of effort to track the judge down and discover that the president who nominated the judge was just as screwy as the judge is. So, it doesn’t take a direct association, just a means to affect things for decades to come such as through a court appointment.
Please note that the focus on my "illegal immigration" point was not so much the issue itself, but Mr. Giuliani's brazen violation of Federal law on that specific issue.
You might also want to do some research on Mr. Kerik and see what his background really was. He was NYPD commissioner late in Giuliani administration (2000-01). He was Giuliani's personal bodyguard and driver when the really effective crime-fighting measures were being implemented early on.
The circumstances surrounding his removal from consideration as Homeland Security chief are also subject to a lot of misrepresentation. The reasons often cited for his removal are actually NOT the real reasons.