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Big Bullet Blues [5.56mm round stopping power inadequate. Study says aim higher and fire two]
Strategy Page ^ | Feb 2, 2007

Posted on 02/02/2007 12:23:59 PM PST by John Jorsett

Troops from the U.S. Army and Marine Corps are still complaining about the "inadequate stopping power" of the 5.56mm round used in the M-16 family of assault rifles. Last year, the army did a study of current 5.56mm M855 round, in response to complaints. Troops reported many reports where enemy fighters were hit with one or more M855 rounds and kept coming. The study confirmed that this happened, and discovered why. If the M855 bullet hits slender people at the right angle, and does not hit a bone, it goes right through. That will do some soft tissue damage, but nothing immediately incapacitating. The study examined other military and commercial 5.56mm rounds and found that none of them did the job any better. The study concluded that, if troops aimed higher, and fired two shots, they would have a better chance of dropping people right away. The report recommended more weapons training for the troops, so they will be better able to put two 5.56mm bullets where they will do enough damage to stop oncoming enemy troops. Marines got the same advice from their commanders. But infantrymen in the army and marines both continue to insist that the problem is not with their marksmanship, but with the 5.56mm bullet. Marines say they have used captured AK-47 rifles in combat, and found that the lower velocity, and larger, 7.62mm bullets fired by these weapons were more effective in taking down enemy troops.

The army study did not address complaints about long range shots (over 100 meters), or the need for ammo that is better a blasting through doors and walls. The army had been considering a switch of a larger (6.8mm) round, and the Special Forces has been testing such a round in the field. But a switch is apparently off the table at the moment. The army report was not well received by the troops, and there is still much grumbling in the ranks over the issue.


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: banglist
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To: Spktyr

I was only talking if you were going to something totally new for military weapons.


81 posted on 02/02/2007 1:06:23 PM PST by Beagle8U (Thompson / Hunter 2008)
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To: untrained skeptic

That's still saying we can only kill them under the most extreme of circumstances.

We may as well play Electronic Battleship with them to determine the outcome of battles.


82 posted on 02/02/2007 1:06:31 PM PST by wastedyears ( "Gun control is hitting your target accurately." - Richard Marcinko)
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To: John Jorsett

.308 ping


83 posted on 02/02/2007 1:08:40 PM PST by TC Rider (The United States Constitution © 1791. All Rights Reserved.)
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To: SJackson

Thanks. My instincts said they were banned in WWI, but the 1924 convention was all I could come up with.


84 posted on 02/02/2007 1:08:44 PM PST by null and void (<----- Shocked and odd...)
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To: activationproducts
That would be a 14,000 grain charge!

First you get a 20 mm case, then neck it down to 5.56 mm.

Fill it with some very very slow powder and you are good to go.

85 posted on 02/02/2007 1:09:16 PM PST by TYVets (God so loved the world he didn't send a committee)
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To: norton

There have been learned books written on the subject. WW2 powder had nothing to do with it, they switched to a different cheaper powder and changed the muzzle velocity. The WW2-era smallarms powder was all gone by the end of Korea.

The commercial ammo stayed with the original powder spec and didn't have a problem. The issue ammo had issues with the twist rate which caused greater fouling.

And yes, the "solution" is still the same. Even though the problem now is the sand and crud that the weapons operate in....


86 posted on 02/02/2007 1:10:20 PM PST by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: Spktyr

Please.
Please.
Let that stupid MYTH about a "wounding" bullet die.
There was NEVER any specification for a "wounding" bullet.

The 5.56mm bullet's primary wounding mechanism is penetration and FRAGMENTATION. Always has been.

And trying to clear a room with an M14 is much less than ideal. Compact firepower (M4 with 14.5" barrel is a much better choice when entering tight quarters against multiple opponents.

M14s are being used by all services, but in SUPPORT of soldiers carrying 5.56mm rounds.


87 posted on 02/02/2007 1:10:54 PM PST by SJSAMPLE
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To: Beagle8U

Good luck, because you'd have to convince Logistics Command about that. As it is, they're annoyed that more and more units are dumping the 5.56 M249 SAW in favor of the M240G in 7.62 for the SAW role.


88 posted on 02/02/2007 1:11:39 PM PST by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: Spktyr

Field robots with gatling guns. Use the 5.56 when you go around finishing everything off.


89 posted on 02/02/2007 1:12:07 PM PST by EQAndyBuzz (The Clintons: A Malignant Malfeasance of the Most Morbid)
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To: NYleatherneck
Or just shoot em twice...

Which weighs more? 1 .30 round or 2 .223 rounds? (Screw the damned Froggy metric system.)

If part of the point of the smaller round was to allow the carrying of more rounds, then that more than defeats the purpose, no?

90 posted on 02/02/2007 1:12:17 PM PST by ApplegateRanch (Islam: a Satanically Transmitted Disease, spread by unprotected intimate contact with the Koranus.)
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To: SJSAMPLE

Um, tell that to McNamara. He's stated repeatedly that that was the logic behind his order to adopt it.

Note that I didn't say that I necessarily agreed, just that that was the logic behind it.


91 posted on 02/02/2007 1:13:18 PM PST by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: Spktyr

"HOLLOWPOINTS WILL NOT PENETRATE BODY ARMOR OR BUILDINGS."

They do in Hollywood.


/sarc


92 posted on 02/02/2007 1:13:31 PM PST by driftdiver
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To: activationproducts

Ok, I may have slightly exagerated. ;)


93 posted on 02/02/2007 1:13:49 PM PST by RobRoy (Islam is a greater threat to the world today than Nazism was in 1938.)
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To: RKV

Thing is, the AR-15-type is still jamming in the field under adverse conditions, and that is unacceptable. Yes, the original problems have been "solved", but the same symptoms with different causes keep appearing.


94 posted on 02/02/2007 1:14:52 PM PST by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: Flatus I. Maximus
Of course, doesn't the Geneva Convention also prohibit cutting off the heads of prisoners, as well as using film of prisoners being tortured and murdered for propaganda purposes?

Yeah, but I think the Koran specifically mentions that they are okay. And you get bonus virgins in paradise.

I don't think the psycho murderers that pass themselves off as jihadis will be sitting down to sign the Geneva Convention anytime soon.

95 posted on 02/02/2007 1:15:07 PM PST by siunevada (If we learn nothing from history, what's the point of having one? - Peggy Hill)
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To: Spktyr
If I had a choice I would take an M-14 over an M-16 any day.

I never had any respect for the 5.56, especially after seeing a group of SPs trying to dispatch a small black bear with one. The bear had wandered into the housing area and the cops decided to kill it. They fired all 50 rounds that they were carrying, hitting the bear 38 times. It continued running and eventually went up a tree. The cops finally called in and had someone bring a 12 guage.

I've seen a piece of brush the size of a pencil deflect a 5.56 bullet way off target. It doesn't have the mass to penetrate at any distance. Once you get out several hundred yards you have the same bullet size and velocity as a 22 magnum.

Don't even get me started on the 9mm.

96 posted on 02/02/2007 1:15:54 PM PST by mbynack (Retired USAF SMSgt)
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To: vigilence

The Russians actually have a very interesting take for house clearing - a short-barrel AK shotgun in full-auto.


97 posted on 02/02/2007 1:15:56 PM PST by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: John Jorsett
How about hollowpoints, the cavity filled with mercury and paraffin or plastic capped? Even if they survive the rounds, they'll suffer the poisoning.
98 posted on 02/02/2007 1:16:53 PM PST by Thumper1960 (Unleash the Dogs of War as a Minority, or perish as a party.)
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To: RKV

Coooool....any way to get that for the home?


99 posted on 02/02/2007 1:18:13 PM PST by Future Snake Eater (Mosul, Baghdad, Karbala...'round and 'round we go...)
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To: Thumper1960

How about NO? See my above post - HOLLOWPOINTS DO NOT PENETRATE BODY ARMOR. NOT EVEN CRAPPY SOVIET-ERA BODY ARMOR.


100 posted on 02/02/2007 1:18:21 PM PST by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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