Climate change killed golden civilisations

The Sunday Times ^ | 1/07/07 | Michael Sheridan

[melt]

NEW research suggests that climate change led to the collapse of the most splendid imperial dynasty in China’s history and to the extinction of the Maya civilisation in Central America more than 1,000 years ago. There has never been a satisfactory explanation for the decline and fall of the Tang emperors, whose era is viewed as a highpoint of Chinese civilisation, while the disappearance of the Maya world perplexes scholars.

Now a team of scientists has found evidence that a shift in monsoons led to drought and famine in the final century of Tang power. The weather pattern may also have spelt doom for the Maya in faraway Mexico at about the same time, they say.

Both ruling hierarchies at the start of the 10th century were victims of poor rainfall and starvation among their peoples when harvests failed.

The martial arts honed during the fall of the Tang still provide a staple of modern Chinese epic films and video games, while Mel Gibson, the actor-director, has just released Apocalypto, a blood-drenched film set in the last days of the Maya.

The Maya practised human sacrifices to please the gods of rain and Chinese soothsayers were employed by the court to divine the seasons, yet neither could have predicted the slow-motion catastrophe resulting from the changing weather.

[Zhang Fei]

The only problem with the Mayan thing, is that the towns in the dryest areas lasted the longest. It was war combined with environmental stress that did it in. The problem with these civilizations is that they required huge amounts of manual labor, coerced, religiously induced, etc, and intense organization. When the Swiss watch got some dirt into it, things were put under severe strain. There was not much margin for error. It really took the steam engine and the like to provide that critical margin, Rome to the contrary notwithstanding.

You're right. Over-population was a real problem in antiquity. Peace brought about stability, which brought about rapid rises in population. The problem was that agricultural productivity wasn't enough to keep up. So some people starved, others revolted and a combination of civil wars and famines led to prosperity again, as depopulation meant that the land was now able to support the previous, lower level of population again.

[SunkenCiv]

similar:

Collapse Of Civilisations Linked To MonsoonChanges
New Scientist | 1-4-2007 | Catherine Brahic
Posted on 01/04/2007 1:32:54 PM EST by blam
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1762414/posts

also related:

Scientists Study Ancient Gulf Stream
UPI | 12-4-2006
Posted on 12/05/2006 6:11:40 PM EST by blam
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1748962/posts

Discovery of Constant, Sun Spot Induced,
Harmless 1500 Years Global Warming Cycles
LifeSiteNews | 12/22/06 | Steve Jalsevac
Posted on 12/26/2006 1:36:26 PM EST by wagglebee
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1758622/posts

Scientists drill back in time in Antarctica
Reuters | Friday, Dec 15, 2006 | Deborah Zabarenko
Posted on 12/16/2006 6:34:54 AM EST by jimtorr
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1754377/posts

Global warming biggest since Viking era
Cox News Service | Friday, February 10, 2006 | MIKE TONER
Posted on 02/12/2006 11:49:59 PM EST by presidio9
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1577371/posts

[Wombat101]

Sure, "Golden Civilizations"; No CFC's, no industrial revolution, no hole in the ozone layer, no fossil fuels and no chemical runoff caused by pesticides.

BUT

There was plenty of slavery, unexplained (and untreated) disease, famine, human sacrifice and absolute monarchs with the power of life and death over every individual.

Sounds to me that when the author is waxing poetic about "Golden Civilizations" what he seems to be referring to is an idealistic (but unfufilled) wish for a pastoral, totalitarian-communist-like society, sans technological progress.

To illustrate the point:

Think of a Stalin-like figure, bedecked in his finery of flayed human flesh, standing upon the balcony of his stone ziggurat (i.e. Kremlin), presiding over the May Day Open-Heart-Surgery-without-anesthetic parade, with thousands of "volunteers" all willing to take a very active (and final) roles, so that the gods (i.e. The State) get their blood sacrifice (which also coincidentally helps reduce the population, saving 'scarce' natural resources), and thus, secure the common harvest (income which will later be ruthlessly redistibuted at the whim of the State).

How dare ou puncture the author's vision of Utopia by asking a logical question about carbon-dated SUV's? (/sarcasm)

[r9etb]

Sigh. More gloom and doom from the "scientists." Seriously, these guys are giving all of us technical folk a bad name.

You need to drop your technical smugness, son. Climate change could very well have done it to these folks, and it's a leading contender for the honor of causing the barbarian invasions that led to the fall of Rome.

[etlib]

Why the author of the article feels that this collapse is inexplicable is in itself inexplicable

That's an easy one -- the author is a journalist working at a liberal rag.

[SunkenCiv]

Thanks To Hell With Poverty. :') No ping, just adding to the catalog.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. Thanks.

Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on or off the
"Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list or GGG weekly digest
-- Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

[Wombat101]

"...and it's a leading contender for the honor of causing the barbarian invasions that led to the fall of Rome..."

I guess all them successive invasions of warrior-folk from the east, themselves often refugees running from other tribes of similar ilk, combined with a moribund, over-taxed-under-capitalized economy, an apathetic and jaded public, syetemic and rampant political corruption, and a failure to maintian it's own infrastructure and institutions had nothing AT ALL to do with the fall of the Roman Empire, huh?

Are you asserting that the migrations of groups like the Goths, Huns, Lombards, etc, were all ultimately driven by dramatic climatic changes in the Near East? If so,then please present your evidence. Because it seems to me that Rome fell because it was infected by a series of viruses and not just one (i.e. Barbarian-itis caused by some catastrophic climate change on the Central Asian steppes).

[wodinoneeye]

Sure, "Golden Civilizations"; No CFC's, no industrial revolution, no hole in the ozone layer, no fossil fuels and no chemical runoff caused by pesticides.

BUT

There was plenty of slavery, unexplained (and untreated) disease, famine, human sacrifice and absolute monarchs with the power of life and death over every individual.

Sounds to me that when the author is waxing poetic about "Golden Civilizations" what he seems to be referring to is an idealistic (but unfufilled) wish for a pastoral, totalitarian-communist-like society, sans technological progress.

To illustrate the point:

Think of a Stalin-like figure, bedecked in his finery of flayed human flesh, standing upon the balcony of his stone ziggurat (i.e. Kremlin), presiding over the May Day Open-Heart-Surgery-without-anesthetic parade, with thousands of "volunteers" all willing to take a very active (and final) roles, so that the gods (i.e. The State) get their blood sacrifice (which also coincidentally helps reduce the population, saving 'scarce' natural resources), and thus, secure the common harvest (income which will later be ruthlessly redistibuted at the whim of the State).

How dare ou puncture the author's vision of Utopia by asking a logical question about carbon-dated SUV's? (/sarcasm)


You forgot about the tasty bits being distributed to offset the protein deficient diets....

[A Balrog of Morgoth]

And of course, every death of an emperor the starting gun for another civil war.

[BigCinBigD]

The Tang dynasty collapsed when Gatorade became popular.

[Fresh Wind]

Ancient SUV...

[Beowulf]

Respiratory exhalations of CO2 emitted as a result of the musculoskeltal process required to power such a vehicle would likely have caused stone age Anthropogenic Global Warming ™.

[Wombat101]

"And of course, every death of an emperor the starting gun for another civil war. "

It was late, I was still recovering from that amazing Cowboys loss, and would chalk this (amazing, in retrospect!)oversight up to fatigue and surprise. Can you ever forgive me?

[muawiyah]

"But there is nothing to suggest that man has ever been able to affect the weather."

Still, immediately following the Great Die Off of the American Indians in the 1500s the world's average temperature dropped.

It didn't get back up to it's previous level until human beings had repopulated the New World and restarted massive agriculture.

One serious thesis is that we've been holding off a plummet into a new period of massive glaciation.

[Loyalist]

The same people who call for man to stop climate change would be the first to complain about interference with nature if man could stop climate change.

[TigersEye]

I wonder if they carbon-dated the ancient Chinese & Mayan SUV's they dug up?

Too much dust from horses hooves and chariot wheels. I only await the unearthing of documents revealing the heretofore unknown Bush Dynasty responsible for this.

[melt]

I only await the unearthing of documents revealing the heretofore unknown Bush Dynasty responsible for this.

You're right. The biblical "Burning Bush" was at fault ... : )

[Old Professer]

The wheel was useless without an axle; an axle with wheels but no suspension or attachment points is still but a toy.

[Doe Eyes]

I only await the unearthing of documents revealing the heretofore unknown Bush Dynasty responsible for this.

This would be the blame Clinton forum.

[A Balrog of Morgoth]

I was standing on your shoulders, as it were.