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Hi underbyte...

Even though I have apparently grieved your sensibilities -- please read my response... thanks in advance....

I do not disagree with your premise... and NOT BEING THE ORIGINATOR OF THIS THREAD... I did not have control over the choices of headlines -- and would not likely have chosen the term "dim-witted" that offends you.

Please permit me to assure that my responses were based on real experience -- not a hip-shot impulse to offend;

I have engaged many hard-core militant atheists in person and on the web... with a lot of polite deference for their views.. and I usually choose to buy the coffee...

I do NOT sense that your worldview or approach to the big idea of God... is such a militant approach... Yet --the two premises I cited in brief are the habitual patterns I see in trying to find common ground therewith.
(1). emotion-based decision making... AND
(2). Selective/intentional development of worldview...

If my choice of language -- or curt FReeper response -- was offensive I am truly sorry.

One of the major discoveries of my life-journey is the derivative of investigating the claims of Christ for myself;
-- And my discovery is that we are indeed created of God....
The God of the Bible... AND......
--In these days we are called of God into a reconciled relationship -- R-E-L-A-T-I-O-N-S-H-I-P...
A life-walk of faith and trust -- that is hands-down superior to all the empty self-affirmed religiosity in the whole earth.

Religion is the man-centered, man-energized effort to find, define, and merit favor with God...

The RELATIONSHIP -- is a response to God's initiative to intervene in our lives for sake of the blessings that are attendant to that extraordinary relationship -- including a positive outcome for eternal life.

You and I do agree on couple of things... I am not into religionists of any flavor issuing self-righteous checklists -- "Do this BUT... Don't do that"... makes no sense...

Unlesssssss.... the wisdom and guidance for life is issued in the context of that amazing relationship. When we are committed in loving relationships -- it is a natural flow of behavior and an inborn desire to please the other Person in the relationship.

Sir, I can tell you have a placed a wonderful value and devotion to your family... and you would do anything for them because of that shared love and devotion.... your wife, your daughter... your family as a whole -- you wouldn't hold back anything to bless them or enhance your relationship with them... and within the matrix of the family relationships as a whole...

I submit for your consideration -- that God feels the same way about His family -- there was a huge problem -- and He did take the initiative to heal the rift... to bridge the chasm.

He did this AFTER proving through the Old Testament Law of Moses -- that even God-prescribed RELIGION could NOT pay the price of holy judgment... or truly reconcile the relationship between God and man.

Ergo-- we celebrate Christmas... the coming of the Son -- whose mission was to extend the invitation to all who would hear --- Then and Now--
That the Heavenly Father was calling us into a reconciled and restored R-E-L-A-T-I-O-N-S-H-I-P....

I am an atheist who married a devout Catholic and my daughter attends catholic school. I support her religious (spiritual) education at every opportunity.

At the risk of getting further out on the limb in this conversation... the New Testament tells us that an unbelieving husband is also blessed in God's sight --through the marriage with a believing wife -- because of God's great rspect fo the marriage covenant and relationship -- it's like a Kingdom freebie...

1 CORINTHIANS 7:13-14a

And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife,

The questions for the journey are really simple...
Is The LORD (YHWH) really the Supreme God??

Which came first God or man??
Did God create man... or
Did man imagine/invent God?
(Man-made gods are called "idols".. whether made of gold, silver, stone, wood, or conveniently incomplete theology)

Who is the initiator of the relationship?
Are man's self-defined religious offerings and edicts enough to please God?... OR
Is God pursuing a right relationship with us...?
Taking the responsibility upon HImself to build the bridge....
Sooooo... all we have to do is choose to walk across in faith....??

Is the Bible a reliable record of God's activity and interventions in the history of humankind?
This is a busy question... but quite definitively "do-able"
I have put the promises and patterns to the test... you have to decide for yourself... but, I vote "yes" -- (correctly interpreted and applied) -- It's the guidebook to life within the context of the amazing relationship!

Is the Carpenter of Nazareth really the life of God in the flesh... fully God and full Man... as he clearly claimed...??
Is He the LORD (YHWH) God-- manifest in the form of a man for making peace with all men??... OR
Is He a fraud and a liar??... OR
Is He a deranged lunatic??

These are mutually exclusive propositions... so only one of them can possibly be true.

What CANNOT be true -- is that Jesus is just a very nice guy... an itinerant teacher and healer who wanted warm fuzzy feelings of good life for everyone... and a highly revered philosopher along the lines of Confucius or Socrates or Plato...

This cannot be true -- No room in the proposition for this one...
Because he CLAIMED to be YHWH... the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob... God of Noah, Moses, King David... etc.

LAST LIFE-JOURNEY QUESTION... I PROMISE:

Which of the three popular eternal views of life after death do you subscribe?? (Again... these are each mutually exclusive propositions -- only ONE of these CAN BE true!)

(1) nihilism.... the old dirt nap.... all done... have fun

(2) reincarnation... recycled.. karma/oversoul... be a man... then a bug... horse... dog... man again... snake... endlessly.. tiring me out...

(3)personal eternity... live life... make choices...
Each person's eternal destiny, position, and reward is based on your life choices... especially the choice of the faith relationship.

I do not have anything to "sell" you, sir... ideas or otherwise...

The only "mission" in my life, is much more like introducing folks to my best Friend... and hope they enjoy knowing Him as much as I have, indeed.

Maybe this discussion would help you reconsider a strategic move from an atheist's "no way" to a sincere skeptic's "maybe"....

But I have neither right nor duty-- And would take no presumption so far as to try to tell you what you "must" believe or do...

I am really not very religious, myslef....
But I left my 6-figures easy-money life to pastor a growing little storefront fellowship full of folks who simply want to grow into the relationship... and share the blessings with others....

I am also a serious family man -- 6 of my own (31 down to 14)... All of them walking out their amazing relationship... It's God's work -- not mine!

I know... this is waaaaay too wordy.... but please permit me....

From my family to you and yours....
Have a merry Christmas celebration...

And don't be surprised to find those extra/unexpected blessings --- and little signs of amazing love all around you...

Thanks for listening...