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To: beckett

I'm using the current definition on WIkipedia, which is the one used by scientists.

"Until those holes shrink to the size of pinholes by the discovery of repeatable, falsifiable evidence, it will be an essentially partial theory, with restricted explanatory power."

This is just plain silly. Evolution has been OBSERVED. Does gravity need repeatable. "falsifiable evidence" beyond observation?

From Talk ORigins:

Biologists define evolution as a change in the gene pool of a population over time. One example is insects developing a resistance to pesticides over the period of a few years. Even most Creationists recognize that evolution at this level is a fact. What they don't appreciate is that this rate of evolution is all that is required to produce the diversity of all living things from a common ancestor.

The origin of new species by evolution has also been observed, both in the laboratory and in the wild. See, for example, (Weinberg, J.R., V.R. Starczak, and D. Jorg, 1992, "Evidence for rapid speciation following a founder event in the laboratory." Evolution 46: 1214-1220). The "Observed Instances of Speciation" FAQ in the talk.origins archives gives several additional examples.

Even without these direct observations, it would be wrong to say that evolution hasn't been observed. Evidence isn't limited to seeing something happen before your eyes. Evolution makes predictions about what we would expect to see in the fossil record, comparative anatomy, genetic sequences, geographical distribution of species, etc., and these predictions have been verified many times over. The number of observations supporting evolution is overwhelming.

What hasn't been observed is one animal abruptly changing into a radically different one, such as a frog changing into a cow. This is not a problem for evolution because evolution doesn't propose occurrences even remotely like that. In fact, if we ever observed a frog turn into a cow, it would be very strong evidence against evolution.

"when we know from the First Law of Thermodynamics that energy cannot be created or destroyed? Despite LGN's protestations, these questions most certainly do relate to ToE, and ToE will remain a partial theory until they are answered."

From talk origins:

"Evolution violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics."

This shows more a misconception about thermodynamics than about evolution. The second law of thermodynamics says, "No process is possible in which the sole result is the transfer of energy from a cooler to a hotter body." [Atkins, 1984, The Second Law, pg. 25] Now you may be scratching your head wondering what this has to do with evolution. The confusion arises when the 2nd law is phrased in another equivalent way, "The entropy of a closed system cannot decrease." Entropy is an indication of unusable energy and often (but not always!) corresponds to intuitive notions of disorder or randomness. Creationists thus misinterpret the 2nd law to say that things invariably progress from order to disorder.

However, they neglect the fact that life is not a closed system. The sun provides more than enough energy to drive things. If a mature tomato plant can have more usable energy than the seed it grew from, why should anyone expect that the next generation of tomatoes can't have more usable energy still? Creationists sometimes try to get around this by claiming that the information carried by living things lets them create order. However, not only is life irrelevant to the 2nd law, but order from disorder is common in nonliving systems, too. Snowflakes, sand dunes, tornadoes, stalactites, graded river beds, and lightning are just a few examples of order coming from disorder in nature; none require an intelligent program to achieve that order. In any nontrivial system with lots of energy flowing through it, you are almost certain to find order arising somewhere in the system. If order from disorder is supposed to violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics, why is it ubiquitous in nature?

The thermodynamics argument against evolution displays a misconception about evolution as well as about thermodynamics, since a clear understanding of how evolution works should reveal major flaws in the argument. Evolution says that organisms reproduce with only small changes between generations (after their own kind, so to speak). For example, animals might have appendages which are longer or shorter, thicker or flatter, lighter or darker than their parents. Occasionally, a change might be on the order of having four or six fingers instead of five. Once the differences appear, the theory of evolution calls for differential reproductive success. For example, maybe the animals with longer appendages survive to have more offspring than short-appendaged ones. All of these processes can be observed today. They obviously don't violate any physical laws.


427 posted on 12/19/2006 12:01:15 PM PST by LiberalGunNut
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To: LiberalGunNut
You've confused the first and second law of thermodynamics! I never mentioned the second law, and, although entropy is a dauntingly difficult subject even for the most brilliant scientist, I have not related problems with entropy to evolution!

You're an amateur, sir. And it shows. And by the way, except in short doses, it's bad form to use someone else's words to talk for you in a discussion forum.

428 posted on 12/19/2006 12:21:24 PM PST by beckett (Amor Fati)
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To: LiberalGunNut
Evolution has been OBSERVED.

SOMETHING has been OBSERVED; and it is CLAIMED to be 'evolution' at work.

434 posted on 12/19/2006 2:06:11 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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