HOA Rule Forbids Couple To Smoke In Their Own Home Judge Upholds Homeowners' Association Order

TheDenverChannel.com ^ | 11/16/06 | TheDenverChannel.com

[wideawake]

ladyjane makes another good point.

My current home is a newbuild and before I bought I looked over the plans for the whole development of 7 homes, checked out a dozen or so other homes and sites the developer built to see how the construction was, whether or not the developer was timely with delivering all the custom details he had promised, etc.

Funny thing is, everyone was real happy with his work, had nothing but nice things to say about him - and then two years after we moved in to our (very satisfactory) house he was sent up for tax evasion, leaving a number of people with half-finished homes.

[jammer]

Well, I learned that the hard way on a remodel (basement finish-out). I just keep laughing, sometimes sadly, at you two and agreeing. Here in Colorado Springs, the scam seems to be that the builders set up LLCs. They then get paid for each portion of the job in advance and never seem to get that last portion complete. And sometimes they don't pay the subcontractors. Then they just dissolve the LLC and establish a new one. I was lucky in that respect and insisted upon not making the final payment until final approval, but the warranties are worthless.

I think the problem is what you alluded to--these folks are great craftsmen and think that translates into running a business. Then when costs go above their expected level, they head for the hills.

[Sunnyflorida]

These smoking threads are a fur-ball.

You have people that argue from all kinds of angles.

The ones that really seem at odds to American principals are those that try to deny the rights of citizens to vote for the laws and regulations they want. The fascist are those that do not support the citizens right to choose the laws - given due process. A variant of this group are those who judge Constitutionality without being judges. Only the courts have that power. These people have the right to challenge but not the power to decide.

Second is the prima facia lack of economic understanding amongst some FReepers, like SheLion, that likes to argue that since the smoking ban was implemented in Florida business got so bad at restaurants that the owners had to raise prices. I keep pointing these people to Sowell and W. Williams but no luck. I have tried but some one needs to explain you can only raise prices sustainably in the face of INCREASING demand.

Third, smoking is bad for you. But if you want to suck on exhaust pipes or drink drano - go for it. Just don't do it were it impacts my space.

The other really stupid argument is "it is legal to own so it cannot be otherwise regulated." Try that one on the North Port Police when you get stopped on I-75 doing 90MPH.


"Like silicone breast implants, why the lawsuits against the manufacturer and not the physician who implanted the toxic material into a human body?"

I toss the idiots that got them in jail for stupidity - just kidding, sort of.

[Ditter]

It always amazes me that when someone comes on here and makes good common sense comments, without being nasty about it, all the smokers just disappear. Well said!

[cajungirl]

Very well put

You are now on the shiete list as an anti!

We are all on their list.

[Sunnyflorida]

The reason I love Rush, besides the fact that he so funny, is that he says you have to "win in the marketplace of ideas" (actual voting). I have no problem with the smokers putting on the ballot referendum and candidates that are for wide open smoking. I just want to be able to defeat them without being called a Nazi or getting into a Socratic argument over: "Is America a democracy or not?"

My experience is that smoking is bad for you. Smoking around kids influences them and probably addicts at least some of them. These smokers are immoral in my opinion if they smoke around kids. I find it disgusting. And I think I should be able to go around the country and not have to smell it. They just can't handle that.

[Sir Francis Dashwood]

The economics of the issue are really amazing...

An eighteen year old putting five dollars per day into a savings account until they are at retirement age is a tidy sum of money... add the power of compounded interest on that money, put it in certificates of deposit, IRAs, mutual funds, etc. and it is better yet...

Tobacco consumption also leads to increased health care costs for everybody else. 75% of Americans will die from either heart disease or cancer... the procedures to combat them are expensive and insurance companies soak the healthy with higher premiums...

The whole argument over tobacco is interesting. Like alcohol, illegal drugs, marijuana, etc., nobody gives a damn as long as it is not their own drug use someone tries to curtail... AND EVERYBODY KNOWS NONE OF IT IS GOOD FOR THEM!

[cajungirl]

My aunt and uncle both died of Sq Cell Ca of the Lung in their fifties. They were heavy smokers. Their only child, my cousin,just died of the same thing after smoking her entire life. She died at 56. She took care of both parents as they died and then she did. She never married. Their only child. Dead way before her time havinig lived and smoked with her parents all her life. It fries me that people are so casual about their lives and their children's lives. The thought of one of my children dying in her fifties because of a habit she learned at my knee makes me pale.

These smokers talk about their rights. But they never talk about the grief they bring to others. Just like dope addicts, alcoholics. They spread the grief all around.

[TommyDale]

Are you seeking help? LOL!

[Eric Blair 2084]

The economics of the issue are really amazing...SFD
___________________________________________________

With all due respect here, I'm not entirely sure many people know exactly how much money the states reap from MSA (unconstitutional, see CEI lawsuit) payments and tobacco excise taxes. The Gubmint is more addicted to the Tobacco tax revenues than smokers are to nicotine. Those revenues fund the very entities like ASH, ANR, TFK who are paid professionals. Their goal is to reduce smoking rates to the below 10% goal set forth in the 1993. In addition to onerous taxation one of their means is to reduce the number of places people could smoke by enacting smoking bans in all 50 states. Your personal comfort as non-smokers is of no importance to them. If SHS smelled like roses and cured leukemia, jock itch and male pattern baldness, they would find some other pretense.

Anti smoking is big business. A ban would cost a lot of people a lot of money. More money than it would cost the tobacco companies.

A few years ago, a North Dakota Republican state legislator proposed legislation to ban tobacco sales in the state. Who flew out to speak against the ban? Not the tobacco companies or SheLion, but the American Cancer Society and the American Lung Association and other anti-smoking groups.

Stunned?

If you want to know more about this, let me know and I'll be happy to get you the links so we can have an intelligent debate.

If you folks are content to just relive third grade and call smokers "icky, yucky, smelly and poopyfaces" and tell them to go away, that's fine too. It's a free country.

Let me know.

If you folks have a really sincere interest in learning what is going on

[Eric Blair 2084]

Not many huge newspapers in Bismarck, ND so here's what we have on Michael Grosz' bill from 2003 to ban tobacco sales in ND:

here's the AP story:

http://www.data-yard.net/10y/nd-ban.htm

From Reason:

http://www.reason.com/blog/show/100657.html

News from our group:

http://www.forces.org/fparch/011703.htm

an editorial:

The interesting thing are the circumstances of the bill¡¯s failure:

[Rep. Wes] Belter [R-Leonard, chairman of the Finance and Taxation Committee] told the House that committee members were frustrated last week with the testimony from anti-tobacco groups that testified against the tobacco ban, including the North Dakota Medical Association, American Heart Association, American Cancer Society, American Lung Association, North Dakota Public Health Association and North Dakota Nurses Association.

What?! That's like the WCTU endorsing Johnnie Walker. These groups are always in favor of raising taxes on tobacco and of banning smoking in public places. But here we have the American Lung Association lobbying against a bill to ban the use of tobacco? Why?


There's no evidence banning tobacco would prevent and reduce tobacco use because no such approach has been implemented, the groups argued.

Ahhhh. Now we see. These groups are skeptical that banning tobacco would reduce its use. Some of these same groups are vocally opposed to lifting the ban on things like marijuana, on the basis that such action would increase use of those drugs. Apparently there's no reason to believe that the same thing would work in reverse, though, and nobody, especially anti-tobacco groups, would want the government to take action based on incomplete or faulty information. But there's more:


The ban also could take away certain funding for these groups for tobacco control programs.

Ah. Well. So the position of the American Lung Association et al. is roughly this: we should not ban tobacco because that would reduce funding for tobacco control programs. It seems to me, though, that banning the sale and use of tobacco is a tobacco-control program. It's just not a tobacco-control program that involves various public health groups receiving funding from the government.

It would be worth remembering this the next time you see any of these groups arguing for higher taxes on tobacco in order to discourage tobacco use and produce positive health results.

THE POINT IS: YOUR OUTRAGE SHOULD BE AIMED AT THE HYPOCRITICAL GOVERNMENT AND HEALTH GROUPS.

[383rr]

I see y'all don't have too much to say on this one.

[383rr]

NORTH DAKOTA LEGISLATURE: Groups question tobacco ban
Measure would make it a misdemeanor crime to sell or use product
Associated Press

"BISMARCK - Health groups that discourage smoking lined up Tuesday to fight legislation what would make North Dakota the first state to outlaw tobacco, a stand that left some lawmakers perplexed."


Yup, Eric, good one.
Ain't that rich. Worthless hypocrites.
Can't let the gravy train de-rail, you know.

[Trajan88]

Ha! That brought out a chuckle in me.

[Eric Blair 2084]

Jeep, you get it already. Talking to you is like preaching to the choir.

I'm trying to explain to other presumptive Conservatives what they haven't figured out yet.

It's not their fault. They don't immerse themselves in the sleaziness that is the tobacco control argument. MSA? ASSIST Study? Tobacco control group executives pulling down six figure salaries? They have no clue.

All they know is they don't like smoke around them. That's understandable. I don't like Indian food, it makes me smell like a friggin NYC cab driver for a week.

But I digress. Insulting others is not how to "Win Friends and Influence People". Let's start from the beginning. When non smoking Conservatives really see what is going on, they'll learn something new.

It doesn't mean they'll want to be in the same bar as us. That's fine. But they'll understand why we want to have our own.

They'll be happy. We'll be happy. Only the social engineering anti's will lose.

[He Rides A White Horse]

They had the personal freedom not to buy into an HOA property and they had the personal freedom not to voluntarily cede part of their property rights to the HOA.

Sorry, but I believe privacy rights trump the decision of these bored, crypto-Nazi homeowners associations.

[SheLion]

eh???

Did I miss this????

[383rr]

Well, if you did, all you missed was a good barf session.

The normal crew was here, defending their right to trample yours, for the children, of course.

Happy T-day. Lioness!

We all love ya!

[Sir Francis Dashwood]

I want to eliminate 501(c) tax-exempt corporations...

[TAdams8591]

I think you were already on this thread, She. But it took a while for you to find it.

I hope you enjoyed a good smoke after a delicious Thankgiving meal! Best wishes to you and thank you for all you do on our behalf!