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Libertarians: Chirping Sectaries
David O. McKay Library, Brigham Young University ^ | 11-09-06 | Russell Kirk

Posted on 11/09/2006 1:18:32 PM PST by Keltik

[Final two pharagraphs]

So in the nature of things conservatives and libertarians can conclude no friendly pact. Conservatives have no intention of compromising with socialists; but even such an alliance, ridiculous though it would be, is more nearly conceivable than the coalition of conservatives and libertarians. The socialists at least declare the existence of some sort of moral order; the libertarians are quite bottomless.

It is of high importance, indeed, that American conservatives dissociate themselves altogether from the little sour remnant called libertarians. In a time requiring long views and self-denial, alliance with a faction founded upon doctrinaire selfishness would be absurd-and practically damaging. It is not merely that cooperation with a tiny chirping sect would be valueless politically; more, such an association would tend to discredit the conservatives, giving aid and comfort to the collective adversaries of ordered freedom. When heaven and earth have passed away, perhaps the conservative mind and the libertarian mind may be joined in synthesis-but not until then. Meanwhile, I venture to predict, the more intelligent and conscientious persons within the libertarian remnant will tend to settle for politics as the art of the possible, so shifting into the conservative camp.

(Excerpt) Read more at emp.byui.edu ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism
KEYWORDS: antilibertarianism; conservatism; libertarianizethegop; principles; sourgrapes
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist

The Republican Party is not "just as liberal as the Dims." Just check the voting records and ADA or ACA ratings of congresscritters. Even most RINOs have better records than most Demonrats. Mainstream Republicans have much better ratings. A libertarian radio guy once exploded into venom when I told him that there were more libertarians in the Republican Party than in the Libertarian Party. There is a sizable minority of the Rep. Party which is hard-core conservative. The present leadership is the problem, plus the veto power exercised by a handful of RINOs and loose-cannon egomaniacs like McCain, who block good judicial appointments. Like it or not, third parties do not work under our system of national politics. NY State was a special case, and the founders of the NY Conservative Party said so at the time of their founding.


141 posted on 11/10/2006 7:29:29 PM PST by hellbender
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To: tacticalogic

It was the imperialists in the mother country who were radically changing the status quo, imposing central Parliamentary control over a bunch of colonies which had been left to pretty much govern themselves. The American "Revolutionaries" wanted to preserve "English liberties" against an encroaching remote central government. That puts them right in the same camp with today's conservatives. The American Tories were analogues to today's liberals: happy with expanding central government. There's a lot of historical literature documenting that the American "revolution" was a conservative one, a movement to protect gains in freedom which had already been achieved. Just read the Declaration of Independence. It accuses the King of many radical moves against existing rights and liberties.


142 posted on 11/10/2006 7:41:49 PM PST by hellbender
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To: hellbender
Just read the Declaration of Independence. It accuses the King of many radical moves against existing rights and liberties.

Indeed it does, and I believe that accounts for the "libertarian" component of "libertarian revolutionaries". Overthrowing an existing establishment of government and replacing it with a totally different form of government, independent and sovereign from the original is a revolution.

143 posted on 11/10/2006 8:02:40 PM PST by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: hellbender

"Their only "revolutionary" action was in throwing off the yolk of an imperial power which had left them to their own devices for much of their history, and was trying to tighten control in the late 18th century."

But throwing off the yolk would leave only the white... is THAT what they were about? Lower Cholesterol before it became faddish... KEWL. Had it been me, I would have thrown off the imperial YOKE... It's far less confusing.


144 posted on 11/10/2006 10:04:30 PM PST by dcwusmc (The government is supposed to fit the Constitution, NOT the Constitution fit the government!)
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To: tacticalogic
You might have to count me among the reactionaries.
Lol!
Anyone who defends the original intent of the Constitution is considered reactionary these days!
.
145 posted on 11/11/2006 10:25:56 AM PST by mugs99 (Don't take life too seriously, you won't get out alive.)
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To: steve-b
People didn't know that they had to travel from Point A to Point B, sometimes at high speed and/or with heavy cargoes?

Yes, most people were incredibly frightened at the high speeds of the automobile. It takes a lot of training for people to get used to anticipating things traveling at forty miles per hour.

This is a standard ultra-left denunciation of Eeeeevil Corporations

Corporations are hardly innocent doves. The good life can be endangered from the private sector as well as the public.

This is another bit of contempt for the masses who obstinately refuse to live as you would prefer them to live.

Hey, my contempt is first for the government which bulldozed people's neighborhoods, and only then for those citizens like my hypocritical self who say "problem? What problem?" as we cruise along to our destination.

Second, the question should be open whether the masses are "contemptible," that is, unfit to rule, just as much as it should be a question of whether we personally are contemptible or unfit to rule. Otherwise we are simply being dogmatic democratists.

146 posted on 11/11/2006 12:10:04 PM PST by Dumb_Ox (http://kevinjjones.blogspot.com)
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To: hellbender
There is no Social Right or Religious Right Party siphoning off votes in critical elections

***BZZZZZZTTTT!*** Thank you for playing.

147 posted on 11/11/2006 3:07:40 PM PST by steve-b (It's hard to be religious when certain people don't get struck by lightning.)
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To: Dumb_Ox
Yes, most people were incredibly frightened at the high speeds of the automobile.

Yeah, I guess that's why they just didn't sell....

The good life can be endangered from the private sector as well as the public.

Obviously, the people who buy what the corporations are selling have concluding that having those things IS "the good life". The fact that some Vision Of The Anointed may disagree is irrelevant in a free society.

the question should be open whether the masses are "contemptible," that is, unfit to rule

There is no question of "ruling". When I buy a car, I do not exercise "rule" over anyone who prefers to walk.

148 posted on 11/11/2006 3:12:06 PM PST by steve-b (It's hard to be religious when certain people don't get struck by lightning.)
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To: Keltik
I don't understand why losertarians hang here? They thump their chest, proclaim their lofty ideology is near the conservative goal, yet different...then they applaud when their ideology sucks votes frpm Republicans and elects liberal Democrats.
149 posted on 11/11/2006 3:17:08 PM PST by Drango (Earth first, we'll strip-mine the other planets later!)
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To: Xenalyte

"If Libertarians are so powerful as to give an election away, if Republicans need us so much, perhaps a more fruitful tactic would be trying to find common ground, instead of insulting us and then wondering why we don't want to hang with y'all."

No, you see, there's this magical pool of voters that's going to spring out of nowhere and vote Republican in '08. That's going to make up for getting rid of all of the libertarians and conservatives that we're going to cut loose.


150 posted on 11/11/2006 3:39:34 PM PST by Sofa King (A wise man uses compromise as an alternative to defeat. A fool uses it as an alternative to victory.)
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To: steve-b
Obviously, the people who buy what the corporations are selling have concluding that having those things IS "the good life". The fact that some Vision Of The Anointed may disagree is irrelevant in a free society.

In effect you are claiming that most every choice is valid, simply by fact of being a choice, and hence beyond criticism. That's as uncritical as you can get. We deserve better than pusillanimous anti-elitist canards.

There is no question of "ruling". When I buy a car, I do not exercise "rule" over anyone who prefers to walk.

In politics, at best some people win and others lose; at worst, everybody loses. When you continue to patronize government-funded road projects, you are benefiting from a political decision which privileges car-driving over walking. What do you make of those urban neighborhoods destroyed by government bulldozers? Eggs broken on the way to making an omlette?

151 posted on 11/11/2006 4:07:54 PM PST by Dumb_Ox (http://kevinjjones.blogspot.com)
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To: tacticalogic

They merely separated themselves from the British imperial regime. They remained governed by their own colonial legislatures, as before. So there was no "totally different form of government!" They simply replaced the British parliament, in which they had no representatives, with the Continental Congress. Replacing an absolute monarchy with a republic, as in France, or with a Soviet dictatorship, that's what a change to a "totally different form of government" looks like. At first they had only the weakest of central governments, because they lacked any real executive branch. The government set up by the Constitution rectified that. There was no attack on any of the social fabric, such as happens in most revolutions, where the Church and upper classes are targeted.
The Founders merely preserved English-style representative government on American soil. Unlike libertarians, they didn't start with an ideal utopian vision of government. They kept an established system, which was anything but libertarian. There was slavery, established churches in several colonies, tariffs (the main source of revenue to the new government), etc. There were no fanatic dopers in the Revolutionary government, either ;-)


152 posted on 11/11/2006 6:51:02 PM PST by hellbender
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To: dcwusmc

Aargh. I feel as if my house just got "egged," or maybe even "shelled."
I think I had those oval things for breakfast, and must have still had them on my mind. You have egged me on to be more careful in the future. But I won't chicken out completely and stop posting, no matter how much you crow over my mistake.


153 posted on 11/11/2006 6:58:12 PM PST by hellbender
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To: steve-b

Can you document that the Constitution Party pulled enough votes to change the outcome in any elections? Hmmm? I'm waiting.

In 2 Senate races, the Liberaltarians pulled enough votes away from the Republicans to give the Dems those seats and thereby control of the Senate, putting an end to any chance of more originalist SCOTUS judges. Thanks a lot.

There is also no evidence that the "religious right" deserted the Republican Party. One of the best predictors of Republican voting continued to be regular church attendance.


154 posted on 11/11/2006 8:00:50 PM PST by hellbender
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To: hellbender

You're evading the issue. The problem is that the GOP listed so far toward the Religious Right that it drove off the swing voters that determine most elections.


155 posted on 11/12/2006 9:46:26 AM PST by steve-b (It's hard to be religious when certain people don't get struck by lightning.)
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To: DesScorp

Given that taxes are the important issue, what's the problem?


156 posted on 11/12/2006 9:47:29 AM PST by steve-b (It's hard to be religious when certain people don't get struck by lightning.)
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To: steve-b
If you think taxes are the only important issue, then you are lost, and no words from me will sway you.
157 posted on 11/12/2006 5:34:03 PM PST by DesScorp (.)
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To: hellbender
There were no fanatic dopers in the Revolutionary government, either ;-)

If you can separate libertarianism as a philosophy - the idea the the nation as a whole will be better off if it assumed that the people can take care of themselves better than the government can do it for them - from the crackpots in the Liberarian Party then I don't think this discussion is going anywhere.

158 posted on 11/13/2006 5:28:29 AM PST by tacticalogic ("Oh bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist
I'll bet 9 out of 10 Libertarians oppose legalizing the hard drugs such as meth or cocaine

Could be, but it sure doesn't appear that way with the ones I've talked with. But even if they only want the 'soft' drugs legalized, I'd still be in disagreement.

just the penalties reduced.

Another point of disagreement.

Ah, the classic apples-and-oranges comparison.

Not at all. You implied that the 'war on drugs' should be stopped because it hasn't been successful. The same can be said for the 'war on murder.'

Which solution do you prefer, the kick-down-the-door failure of a WOD or letting Darwin work its magic?

I prefer to keep drug sale and use illegal, and I prefer that those laws be enforced.

159 posted on 11/13/2006 6:19:35 AM PST by MEGoody (Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.)
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