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"Flags of our Fathers" mini-review
self | 10/20/06 | LS

Posted on 10/20/2006 7:04:56 PM PDT by LS

This is not intended as a full-scale review, just some impressions from seeing the movie tonight.

First, as you likely know, it deals with the three men (a Navy corpsman and two Marines) of the six flag raisers who survived Iwo Jima. Clint Eastwood directed this pic, which traces the first flag-raising---which, of course, was thought to be "the" flag-raising---then the second, captured for all time in Joe Rosenthal's photo. The main plot line is that the nation was broke, and would have to sue for peace with the Japanese (right) if we didn't generate more money, quickly, through war bond sales. So these three men were dragooned into doing war bond tours, even to the point of re-enacting their "charge" up Suribachi and their flag-raising.

Second, Eastwood jumps back and forth between time frames---the bond tour, combat on Iwo Jima---that it's extremely difficult to follow. Despite taking time on the ship to try to set the characters of those other than the three main characters (Ira Hayes, Rene Gagnon, and John Bradley), the grittiness of war makes the men look so much alike that, well, it's hard to identify with any particular characters---at least, it was for me.

The main theme of the movie is guilt: the guilt felt by the flag-raisers for their buddies who didn't survive, guilt on Gagnon's part for "only" being a runner, guilt on Hayes's part for only firing his weapon a few times. Eastwood drives home the difficulty of bearing the label "hero," especially when one hasn't done anything particularly outstanding, except for surviving. While he does try, through the War Department representative, to grapple with the public's need for heroes---men who can symbolize what the others went through---Eastwood never quite gets there. Torn between trying to depict the carnage and mayhem of war and the importance of living icons with which to identify, Eastwood comes up a little short in each.

The final lines of the movie repeat the refrain from "Black Hawk Down," "Saving Private Ryan," and other recent war movies: Ultimately, they fought for each other, not for a cause or a country. Perhaps some did, but I find it hard to believe that so many millions of men signed up just to fight for each other.

Moreover, while the photo did capture the public's imagination, there was no doubt in anyone's mind that we would win the Pacific eventually; and in February 1945, with Nazi Germany collapsing, the Bulge pocket pushed back out, and American armies pushing into Germany, to suggest that Americans were about to "give up" if we hadn't gotten a miraculous photo is utter nonsense.

In short, I was disappointed only because I expected a lot more.


TOPICS: Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: eastwood; flagsofourfathers; iwo; iwojima; japan; marines; worldwarii
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To: LS

Larry, I read "Flags" and tried to read "Flyboys" but was struck - as you were - by the moral equivocating. Turns out that the author spent many years in Japan and has a Japanese wife. I thought he was a bit of an apologist for Japanese atrocities. That's where "The Great Raid" really shone.


121 posted on 10/21/2006 10:00:35 AM PDT by The Right Stuff
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To: Petronski
"A segregated Marine unit storming Iwo Jima ..."

Surely you mean "desegregated" or "integrated"??

122 posted on 10/21/2006 10:01:49 AM PDT by Tenniel (Never explain. Your friends don’t need it, and your enemies won’t believe it anyway. – E. Hubbard)
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To: Tenniel

Yes I do. Thanks for the correction.


123 posted on 10/21/2006 10:03:22 AM PDT by Petronski (CNN is an insidiously treasonous, enemy propaganda organ.)
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To: The Right Stuff
"Great Raid" was good, but lacked something. Dunno what.

When I think of truly great war movies, the first one that comes to mind is "Zulu," and the second is "Patton." One thing that both of those have in common is there is no moral equivocating over what was right or wrong.

I'm sorry that Japanese cities had to be torched before their ghoulish, insane leaders would surrender, but them's the breaks. Better they fall into our hands than we into theirs.

124 posted on 10/21/2006 10:10:19 AM PDT by LS
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To: LS
The Flag Raisers

125 posted on 10/21/2006 10:13:52 AM PDT by oh8eleven (RVN '67-'68)
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To: Uriah_lost
Good morning.
"For my money, "The Great Raid" is the best WWII movie to be made recently."

Both for the tale and the craftsmanship in my mind, though "Band of Brothers" is right up there with it.

Michael Frazier
126 posted on 10/21/2006 10:19:07 AM PDT by brazzaville (no surrender no retreat, well, maybe retreat's ok)
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To: Uriah_lost

"Battlegound" and "Stalag 17" are my all-time favorite WWII flicks. Bought both of them on DVD at Wal-Mart about a year ago.


127 posted on 10/21/2006 10:26:25 AM PDT by BigSkyFreeper (Karl Rove you magnificent bastard!)
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To: LS
I think there are two levels at which people fight.

I agree completely. That's the same point I was trying to make - that Holllywood gets caught up in just one level. For some of them, it's because they are propagandists (Oliver Stone,) while for many others, it is because of their artisitc, emotional, tunnel-vision. I have not seen this movie yet, but based on his other movies (Heartbreak Ridge), I would think Eastwood is much more likely to fall into the latter group.

BTW, I agree on Vietnam vets. I have four uncles and a cousin who served there, none of them drafted, and I served with a few Vietnam vets during my time in the Army.

128 posted on 10/21/2006 10:30:05 AM PDT by PhatHead
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To: LS
Everyone seemed to generally enjoy the film. There was a lot of laughter when the battalion commander was talking about the "blankety-blank politician" who wanted to take the company flag and hang it on his wall.

One of the older men, I would guess that he fought on Iwo Jima, said that the actors were too clean to be fighting on Iwo, that the soot and dirt covered everyone so that usually the only way you could tell friend from foe was by their helmets and weapons. But in order for us (the audience) to be able to identify the different characters, some compromises had to be made.

129 posted on 10/21/2006 10:36:47 AM PDT by Stonewall Jackson ("I see storms on the horizon.")
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To: LS
I just think Clint fell victim to a current "theology" in Hollywood that diminishes the role of ideas in human motivation.

Yes, this is the point I was trying to make in my Post 53, that Hollywood gets too one-dimensional, too caught up in the immediate, personal motivations, ignoring the "big picture," which is a real part of a soldier's motivation - in any war. Thanks for expanding on the point, I agree completely.

I still want to see this movie, and hope it is a good one. I think it is possible for Hollywood to take that narrow approach and still succeed in presenting a respectful treatment of the story.

130 posted on 10/21/2006 10:36:52 AM PDT by PhatHead
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To: LS
Good morning.
"That and the "napalm girl" (which was a phoney in that she had not been "napalmed" at all)."

You're mistaken there and I'm sorry to see that as it lessens your credibility some.

The naked girl had been burned when napalm was dropped in the battle for the hamlet but South Vietnamese pilots were flying the mission in support of ARVN troops.

I'm still going to see Flags, but I will now filter it through the observations of you and other FReepers and I will see it only as a movie.

Michael Frazier
131 posted on 10/21/2006 10:39:49 AM PDT by brazzaville (no surrender no retreat, well, maybe retreat's ok)
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To: SteveH
How is the book rated by folks? [In need of a Christmas present...]

Get it...if your recipient is at all interested in that sort of thing, it's a "can't put it down" winner; best book I've read in several years.

132 posted on 10/21/2006 10:40:49 AM PDT by ErnBatavia (Meep Meep)
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To: LS
Good morning.
"They conclude, rightly in my view, that even if the U.S. had lost at Midway, the war in the Pacific only would have lasted one more year"

The two Japanese authors were wrong about Japan's ability to continue fighting.

The battle of Midway took place in 1942. Even with the crushing victory we inflicted on the Japanese at Midway, those brave Marines had to take Iwo Jima and we had to drop the Bomb to end it in 1945.

Michael Frazier
133 posted on 10/21/2006 10:52:03 AM PDT by brazzaville (no surrender no retreat, well, maybe retreat's ok)
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To: TADSLOS

No doubt!


134 posted on 10/21/2006 10:52:03 AM PDT by PhatHead
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To: oh8eleven

Exactly - thanks for the correction.


135 posted on 10/21/2006 10:55:48 AM PDT by PhatHead
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To: Petronski; DCPatriot
Imagine the damage JFK is going to do

You don't think our government had a hand in the death of JFK ?

You don't think the State Department and other factions in our government have been involved in trying to "destroy" this President currently?

You are stone naive.

Say hello to Patty Fitzgerald for me.

136 posted on 10/21/2006 10:55:58 AM PDT by beyond the sea ( Either hold your nose a little on Election Day ......... or grab your ankles for the next years)
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To: LS

One thing I hate about the current "bumper sticker" mentality of the general public is the tendency to oversimplify.

The reasons men join the military, fight and sacrifice their lives are multilayered. Fighting for your country, for freedom, for your way of life, for your family, and for your buddies next to you in a foxhole are NOT mutually exclusive.


137 posted on 10/21/2006 11:11:46 AM PDT by Zman516 ("Allah" is Satan, actually.)
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To: PhatHead

It's worth it if for no other reason than the scene where they finally get the flag up and the entire fleet begins blaring its horns and ringing its bells.


138 posted on 10/21/2006 11:30:36 AM PDT by LS
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To: brazzaville
A) They aren't "Japanese." They are Americans totally immersed in IJN culture and know it intimately.

B) Yes, we had to drop the bomb. But what I said was that Japan couldn't win, even if they had won at Midway. Their resources were such that they only built one more fleet carrier in four years (we built 17).

It was a matter of "when," not "if" we beat them, and Yamamoto, among others, knew it.

139 posted on 10/21/2006 11:33:10 AM PDT by LS
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To: LibertyGrrrl

Kareem Abdul Jabbar has written a book about an African American tank battalion in WWII. I can't remember the name of it, but there are a few books about the black experience in WWII.


140 posted on 10/21/2006 11:43:36 AM PDT by 91B (God made man, Sam Colt made men equal)
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