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U.S.: Test Points to N. Korea Nuke Blast
Breitbart.com ^ | 10/13/06 | ROBERT BURNS

Posted on 10/13/2006 7:18:26 PM PDT by verum ago

The U.S. government has determined that one scientific test, among many conducted since North Korea's announced nuclear test, was consistent with a nuclear explosion, a senior administration official said Friday night.

The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, cautioned that the administration has not made a definitive conclusion about the nature of the explosion.

"The betting is that this was an attempt at a nuclear test that failed," the official said. "We don't think they were trying to fake a nuclear test, but it may have been a nuclear fizzle _ an effort that failed." The official spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitive nature of the information.

(Excerpt) Read more at breitbart.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: atomic; northkorea; nuketest
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To: GSlob

If I divided my money between a rocket program and a mini-neutron bomb nuke program, I'd put 99.9% into warhead development. A small nuke can be delivered in an artillery shell.


21 posted on 10/13/2006 9:16:33 PM PDT by Fitzcarraldo
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To: blazematrix
Something is not right. Either fission was reached or it was not. What does a fizzile mean?

In order to get an atomic bomb to detonate you need something more than a criticality. You need what's called a supercritical reaction from the U-235 (or Pu-239) to the point where one fission reaction causes more than one subsequent fission reaction. That only happens when you get the materials dense enough and have a neutron emitter than is spitting out oodles of neutrons into the dense hot metal that just got crushed by the explosives. If the explosives are off AT ALL, you wont get the proper shape and density at the time of the explosion and you get a critical but not supercritical reaction which basically works like a bunch of explosives, but not the kiloton yields that a true atomic bomb would get.

The long as the short of it, they tried to make a plutonium atomic bomb but screwed up the design somewhere and got a baby reaction.

There is a section in "Sum of All Fears" by Tom Clancy that goes into wonderful detail (but obviously leaves some stuff out).

22 posted on 10/13/2006 9:21:07 PM PDT by Centurion2000 ("Be polite and courteous, but have a plan to KILL everybody you meet.")
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To: Marine_Uncle
"Something is not right. Either fission was reached or it was not. What does a fizzile mean?"

S. Korean Lawmaker, "Russia might have given N. Korea know-how of miniature nukes"
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1717327/posts
23 posted on 10/13/2006 9:26:16 PM PDT by familyop ("he died for rodeo horse on Jul 25, 1987." - - skanamaru)
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To: Marine_Uncle

"Fizzle" is the sound that is heard by prideful folks, when they hold their hands against their ears too hard. IMO, during the next few years and if you don't already have one, find a nice, rural getaway that doesn't have a city very near the west side of it.


24 posted on 10/13/2006 9:34:45 PM PDT by familyop (Essayons)
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To: verum ago
["The betting is that this was an attempt at a nuclear test that failed"}

Premature nuclearization. It can happen to anybody.

25 posted on 10/13/2006 9:41:04 PM PDT by Mad_Tom_Rackham (Democrats. French, but more cowardly.)
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To: Marine_Uncle

Come to think of it, that quote about a "fizzle" came from news several days ago. The following doesn't contain the mishmash of several days' news that we're seeing, but it doesn't contain much. Bear in mind that their are powerful economic interests and considerations involved in foreign relations and advertising for news companies. Japan and the ROK comprise a large link of our world economy.

Radioactive material found after N Korea test
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1719206/posts


26 posted on 10/13/2006 10:07:20 PM PDT by familyop (Essayons)
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To: IYAAYAS
The North Koreans might have the ability to build a large, crude atom bomb. They will never be able to build one light enough to mount on a long range missile. A thermonuclear weapon is farther off than their future.

You forget, they are not starting from ground zero, so to speak. They have the advantage of several decades of open literature on the subject, and probably several years of help from the Pakistani "Kahn" network.

I suspect they lacked something in the quality control, rather than basic design, and the device flew apart faster than the reaction could proceed. Maybe the implosion was insufficently spherical. Or cylindrical if they were attempting that design (It's easier , but less efficient)

27 posted on 10/13/2006 10:16:51 PM PDT by El Gato
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To: Centurion2000
There is a section in "Sum of All Fears" by Tom Clancy that goes into wonderful detail (but obviously leaves some stuff out)

And probably puts in some wrong stuff too. I would have.

28 posted on 10/13/2006 10:19:16 PM PDT by El Gato
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To: El Gato
I suspect they lacked something in the quality control, rather than basic design, and the device flew apart faster than the reaction could proceed. Maybe the implosion was insufficently spherical. Or cylindrical if they were attempting that design (It's easier , but less efficient)

Again, we just don't know - a small, but effective neutron weapon of low explosive output would be consistent with the seismic data. I would assume this were the case. A neutron weapon apparently requires a certain amount of high-purity tritium; has NK been after that material?

29 posted on 10/13/2006 10:31:06 PM PDT by Fitzcarraldo
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To: Marine_Uncle
Either fission was reached or it was not. What does a fizzile mean?

A fizzle, in this context, would be a bomb that "disassembled" (came apart; vaporized itself) before very much of the U or Pu actually got around to fissioning.

There's a mathematical coefficient -- I forget what letter the physicists use, but it's not important -- which describes the average number of neutrons produced from a fission reaction which will go on to cause another fission reaction. In a subcritical assembly, that number is well below one. The challenge in building a fission bomb is to take it from well below one, to as high as you can get it (above one, in the 2 to 3 neighborhood) and to do that in a fraction of a microsecond, so that the bomb doesn't have time to heat up and come apart after consuming only a small fraction of the available U or Pu.

The original implosion device, the Fat Man type detonated over Nagasaki, had a 20-21 kt yield. The second generation weapons developed and tested by the US in the 1948-49 did nothing different except optimizing the implosion technique and the core design to get a faster, more energetic assembly process (getting that coefficient to rise higher and faster). That change alone was enough to push the yield into the 35-40 kt range.

30 posted on 10/13/2006 10:33:47 PM PDT by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: Fitzcarraldo
Again, we just don't know - a small, but effective neutron weapon of low explosive output would be consistent with the seismic data. I would assume this were the case.

A neutron bomb is a very small hydrogen bomb that's highly optimized to produce a big neutron flux. Given that we have no evidence that the NKs have ever developed a hydrogen bomb at all, I think an NK neutron bomb is highly unlikely, unless they stole it or bought it.

Remember that the US didn't develop neutron bombs until the 1970's. It's a 4th or 5th generation device, not a trivial piece of technology at all.

The much more likely explanation for a 500 ton yield is either (a) a barely-fueled "proof-of-concept" fission bomb, with a possible full yield test later; or (b) a lousy design.

31 posted on 10/13/2006 10:38:03 PM PDT by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: Campion
I think an NK neutron bomb is highly unlikely, unless they stole it or bought it.

Bingo

32 posted on 10/13/2006 10:39:38 PM PDT by Fitzcarraldo
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To: Fitzcarraldo

The badly-designed fission weapon hypothesis is much more likely. In any case, if the US can "sniff" some contamination and do the radiochemistry, the government will know for sure before long. (Not that they'll necessarily tell the rest of us, however.)


33 posted on 10/13/2006 10:43:08 PM PDT by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: verum ago
Don't anyone hold their breath waiting on the UN to do anything positive about the NK madman.

Leave it to the UN to take the John Kerry way out of confrontational problems......CUT AND RUN.
34 posted on 10/13/2006 10:53:20 PM PDT by OKIEDOC (Kalifornia now a certified socialist state reporting to Mexico City for further instructions)
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To: All

Good enough explainations for me.


35 posted on 10/14/2006 6:39:44 AM PDT by Marine_Uncle (Honor must be earned)
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To: Marine_Uncle

36 posted on 10/14/2006 6:43:24 AM PDT by CJ Wolf
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To: CJ Wolf

What a distinguished group of nuclear scientist.


37 posted on 10/14/2006 7:10:49 AM PDT by Marine_Uncle (Honor must be earned)
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