Posted on 09/20/2006 3:54:59 AM PDT by excludethis
Thailand must negotiate with leaders of an ethnic Malay Muslim separatist insurgency if it wants to end bloodshed in its troubled Muslim-majority southern provinces, the country’s army chief said on Friday.
General Sondhi Boonyaratkalin said the violence, which has claimed more than 1,500 lives, would not be quelled if authorities only arrested the foot-soldiers of the militancy, but refused to talk to its instigators. “It is necessary to talk to make lasting peace,” Gen Sondhi, the first Muslim to head the Thai army, told Thai journalists on Friday.
ADVERTISEMENT The appeal for talks with insurgents came a day after bombs in 22 banks across the province of Yala exploded almost simultaneously, killing a retired official, and injuring 28 people.
The highly co-ordinated attacks on the banks, including two state-owned Islamic banks, demonstrated the militants’ rising technical capacity, and their willingness to strike at the foundations of the economy of the region, an ethnic Malay Muslim-majority enclave in Buddhist-majority Thailand.
“Nothing is spared,” said Sunai Phasuk, a political analyst with Human Rights Watch. “So far, they have targeted administrative structures, security forces, law enforcement, educational structures, and cultural structures, like Buddhist monks. Now they attack the economic structure, which means nothing put in place by the Thai state is accepted.”
Since the renewed flare-up in January 2004 of a decades-old separatist insurgency, Thaksin Shinawatra, the prime minister, has promised to shower the troubled region with money to accelerate economic growth, while also imposing a state of emergency that allows security forces to use harsh measures to crack down on suspected militants.
Mr Thaksin has, in public, staunchly refused to engage in negotiations to end the long-standing conflict, which has at its roots resistance by ethnic Malay Muslims against forcible assimilation into the Thai state, and resentment at discrimination against them in jobs and education.
Yet behind the scenes, some Thai officials have been quietly engaging over the last year with “certain individuals” – including prominent southern Thai Muslims in political exile – who are seen as potentially able to influence the insurgents.
“The army has been trying to talk with the intellectual leaders of the militant groups,” Mr Sunai said.
However, Mr Sunai said negotiations still faced formidable obstacles, including ensuring that those southern Thai Muslims in contact with officials could actually exert influence on the ground.
If you are waiting for a direct link, you will be waiting for eternity.
Iran uses proxies. Everybody understands the links and how it works. The only State actor with funds for this stuff is Iran. It has always been doing this since Muslim extremism first reared it's ugly head in Lebanon under Reagan. It has continued unabated since. It is why we took out Iraq. Iran is the key to it all.
All of it........
> What I caught flack for on this thread was the recent (last two years) growing relationship with Iran. Laying religion aside, the relationship is my point. <
Well if that's the case, then you should be guardedly optimistic about the coup, because it was the PREVIOUS government -- not the coup leaders -- who had been flirting with Iran.
> American influences in Thailand are the reasons behind the push by Iran, and this coup may be related indirectly. <
So by your logic, if Thailand weren't such a good friend to the USA, then Iran would be less interested in having influence there?
My mildest possible advice to you: Get real.
> Iran has agents working in many places to destabilize relationships with the West, and may well be starting to fund the insurgency that according to some observers, resulted in this coup. <
Iran may well be giving money to the Muslim separatists in southern Thailand. But that has nothing to do with the coup -- with possibly the exception that the 99% of Thai military leaders who are Buddhist may think Thaksin has been totally ineffective in dealing with the Muslim terrorists. But if that's the case, then your argument is totally undermined.
In any event if you think there's the slightest chance that Muslims as a group, terrorist or otherwise, will gain significant influence in Thailand outside of their small redoubt on the Malaysian border, then your thoughts on the matter are so unrealistic as to be altogether meaningless.
So you think that now with a Muslim in charge that things will get better?????
You get real....You underestimate Iran, and the war on terror. You underestimate moderate Islam. You underestimate what they are trying to do.
They are just as much a threat to Thailand, as they are to Iraq or Dearborn Michigan.
You are now simply engaging me to be engaging me. none of these conversations with the coup supporters on this thread have dealt with any of the issues that I am broaching here, or any of the other posters. For various reasons this decision to overthrow the entire democracy of Thailand to get rid of one man has been wrongly supported.
I don't understand it, simply because it unsupportable in any rational way.
But you know that don't you.....????
While I do not yet believe this coup is fomented by foreign sources, you must understand American concern over Muslim activity, particularly in the South. American intelligence has reported connections with Al Qaeda and Jamal Ismaliya, one of the groups involved in the South. Thai police have reported discovery of laptops, etc., with pointers to Indonesian and Malaysian terrorist groups. It is not a stretch to believe that those groups are being funded by foreign sources and right now Iran and Syria are the biggest money launderers. I DO know for a fact that Sondhi is now offering deals to the terrorists. That does NOT sound good. Terrorists need to be killed; not given deals. That may reflect falang thinking, but the da*n terrorists are trying to kill us falangs, and are doing a good job in the Thai South.
It is possible that Sondthi will appoint pro-US civilian Ministers and will permit elections in which even Thaksin is permitted to contest (which, if true, Thaksin would win). It is also possible that Sondthi will throw in with Muslim powers.
There is a great deal of American unease right now and you need not to call us all "stupid" or "ignorant" because we are suspicious in the manner the conspirators took over.
Some of us REALLY believe that Thaksin has been good for Thailand and that in any event the way he was removed is unconstitional and unlawful and potentially detrimental to American-Thai relations. For those of us who really care to Thailand because our relatives are there and we are planning to live there, it is of great concern.
If there was any indication that they even cared about U.S. concerns, they would have had more to say and a shorter time frame. They made no mention of reestablishing the Constitution, so I assume they have no intent.
Something happened here, that left them unprepared. Something else has taken precedent over continued democratic government.
I have no support for this opinion, other than my analysis at this point, but there is some indication that the coup was prompted by something other than the stated reasoning, and that there will be more to come in the days ahead, as things begin to shake out.
Very worrisome and potentially a sign that things are about to get much worse for the U.S. and the international war on terror.
Note also, Chriac's sudden public about face at the U.N., during the same time frame as the coup. He suddenly distances himself from Bush on Iran when only minutes earlier, he agreed in public.
There is a skunk in the woodpile.
Well said.
Surely, you must be jesting!
My BS detector has been off for a while. Killjoy and I have been having (I think) a relatively friendly disagreement over Thaksin and his policy. My wife is Thai with relatives in Isan, and we all love Thaksin. He's been really good for NE dwellers. He has also been very strong on fighting Muslim Terrorists. If I understand KJ's position, he believes that Thaksin is the epitome of all corruption because he has been a very strong leader and has not taken graft in the traditional Thai sense. KJ would probably disagree taking the position that the sale of Shin Satellite in which he didn't pay significant taxes (although he did pay court fines) was a sellout of Thai interests. I find that position somewhat hypocritical since the Opposition had totally ravaged Thaksin over his ownership of the company while Prime Minister. So when he sells it he got crucified the other way. I DO know that in Thaksin it TAKES a strong leader to get something done, and much in the manner of George W. Bush, Thaksin basically said, "to hell with the opposition, I'm going to do what I think it's right". Various Thai institutions, including the Army, resisted his call to fight the terrorists and did everything they could to blame him for excesses in the South. Just as they do with George W. Bush. Still, KJ's position is that Thaksin was doing things "un-Thai" -- not seeking consensus-- and deserved ouster. I don't agree. I do KNOW that Thaksin and my wife's relatives lost a good friend in Thaksin. Where we go from here is hard to see and I don't think it's good for the US. And since my wife and I have land there on a lake, and I'm planning on retiring there, I want there to be good government and no Muslim terrorists around.
> the Opposition had totally ravaged Thaksin over his ownership of the company while Prime Minister. So when he sells it he got crucified the other way. I DO know that in Thaksin it TAKES a strong leader to get something done, and much in the manner of George W. Bush, Thaksin basically said, "to hell with the opposition, I'm going to do what I think it's right". Various Thai institutions, including the Army, resisted his call to fight the terrorists and did everything they could to blame him for excesses in the South. Just as they do with George W. Bush. Still, KJ's position is that Thaksin was doing things "un-Thai" -- not seeking consensus-- and deserved ouster. I don't agree <
I'm marginally closer to your position than to that of Killjoy, though I much appreciate and respect his views.
And your analysis is pretty much the same as that of my Thai wife, who spends an hour or more every day glued to the Thai satellite channels available here in the USA, or on the phone with friends and relatives in Bangkok and Chiangmai.
On the other hand, I'm 100% comfortable in saying (1) that the coup was basically a non-event as far as the USA's national security is concerned and (2) hat life in Thailand won't be changed significantly. Moreover, I have no absolutely no fear about events in the vicinity of our CNX real estate holdings, where we love to spend Januaries and Februaries.
The comparison is wholly superficial, based entirely two similarly negative reactions to two completely different subjects. It's also wholly dishonest. There is no factual merit to the left's acid-trip vision of Halliburton as a modern day Trilateral Commission. While there is considerable factual merit to the belief that Islam is the most violent religion on the planet, and the greatest threat to western civilization in at least 60 years.
This does not equate Halliburton and Muslims; it equates the knee-jerk reactions and possible intellectual vacuity of the criers in both camps.
You can't divorce one from the other. If you believe each reaction is equally (or even comparably) vacuous, by extension, you obviously believe both subjects are equally or comparably undeserving of such a reaction.
The premise of your comparison alone equates one with the other.
Of course it is.
THAILAND’S new military leaders yesterday moved to tighten their grip on power, restricting political activities and taking over legislative powers as former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra broke his silence on his ousting, saying that he would be taking a “deserved rest”.
With Thaksin laying low in London after his Tuesday night overthrow, the coup leaders moved to place the tycoon-turned-politician’s vast assets under scrutiny, amid mounting calls for his prosecution for alleged corruption.
In Bangkok, a spokesman for the coup group — which yesterday released the official English translation of its name, the Council for Democratic Reform under Constitutional Monarchy — confirmed that four of Thaksin’s close associates were being kept in custody, including two ministers, Deputy Prime Minister Chitchai Wannasathit and Thaksin’s top aide, Prommin Lertsuridej.
(Excerpt) Read more at irishexaminer.com ...
Actually I don't care at all about the satellite sale. It is not my business and if it was me, I would do everything i could to avoid taxes also.
Various Thai institutions, including the Army, resisted his call to fight the terrorists and did everything they could to blame him for excesses in the South.
We disagree on this one completely. I am friends with various individuals from privates up to generals who are down in the south. Their view of things, which I respect tremendously, does not agree with yours. They have had their hands tied by Bangkok and have not been able to do their job. I have tried before and nothing I can say will convince you otherwise so I will just leave this one alone.
Still, KJ's position is that Thaksin was doing things "un-Thai" -- not seeking consensus-- and deserved ouster.
Not at all. Toxin's major mistake was in alienating everyone who had even the least bit of disagreement with him. A perfect example is the recent bomb plot. After the plot, Toxin issued statement after statement about the military implicating high ranking individuals but refusing to name names. If these individuals were involved in a plot to kill a prime minister, why were they not arrested? This action completely alienated the military who saw it as a trick for him to gain more power. At that point it didn't matter if the plot was real or not, the prime minister simply treated it as a game. (As one former General stated, "If we wanted to kill him, he would be dead.") Since Toxin's brother-in-law, the former head of Crime Supression Division, has destroyed all the investigation paperwork, I guess we will never know.
I have no problem with him being 'Un-Thai'. I am 100% American. What matters is when a leader feels that he is more important than the nation he is leading. When that happenes, he is setting himself up to get smacked down and that is what happened.
The following piece is the most accurate review of events I have read so far:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/HI21Ae02.html
Please read it and let me know what your thoughts are.
Congrats on your wife. I too have the FTA satellite for the Thai channels and my wife has been watching. Her calls home reflect the Isan opinion that there's a lot more important things than politics in the Capital that we falangs tend to focus upon. Their lives are far more filled with the daily travails of farming and making a go of it than who is the PM. But they DO appreciate what Thaksin has done for them, particularly with the health care card, and are concerned the new regime might change that...It's us falangs that are concerned with the GWOT. I hope you are right and there's nothing to worry about...My wife and I are working on 10 years next year and our new guest house on our own land will be great to get to...(Lake Surinthon area)...
I'm sorry for mis-stating your views on the satellite sale. Thanks for the Asia Times article...My view may not be the most popular, but for me it is a lot more important to fight terrorism and be a leader who gets something done than to lead by consensus and get nothing done. Chuan Leek-Pai was that kind of leader. Chavalit was the traditional "graft" kind of leader. Thaksin was a strong man but at least on the surface it appeared he was With Us. At today's US State Department briefing the spokesman, Tom Casey, was hard pressed to explain how the US "disapproved" of the coup but still wouldn't favour the re-instatement of our friend Thaksin. He made it clear we weren't going to do anything, but we disapproved. I'm a worrier...and we have so many "Muslim" problems that one more doesn't make me easy. I guess we'll have to wait and see what these new folks will DO. I also KNOW that if Thaksin is ever allowed back in the country, he'll be pM again. Isan folks really want him, even though the Bangkok elites don't. It's bedtime on the East Coast of the US...talk to you in about 7 hours...
Killjoy,
1. I don't remember discussing this with you...I believe I was talking to Hawthorn and not you.
2. Don't take that tone with me assh*le, because I do have my facts straight. I never said anything positive about Thaksan, and what I stated was factually correct. Sondhi and those who led the Coup overthrew a government that was democratically elected. Yes, there were MAJOR questions a to whether or not the election was truly honest, but the fact remains that Thaksin was elected and had not been removed by any judicial order or electoral mandate. I am WELL aware of Thaksin's shortcomings which is why if you read my initial post I an sympathetic to those who participated in a Coup.
3. You are picking a fight with a guy who has stated a VERY balanced position on this issue and had criticized some of the others who have taken the reflexive anti-Sondhi position. I was merely expressing to Hawthorn why he should understand the reflexively negative reaction to this event on behalf of many Freepers.
4. Now that you've chosen to be an assh*le to me for no good reason, I did some research into your past posts here. It looks to me like you are either a non-conservative troll who posts here to cause trouble, or you are a hyper sensitive member of a minority group who sees implied or overt racism behind every post. Or could you just be an assh*le who doesn't treat people with respect, which would explain your completely unprovoked attacks on me and others for merely disagreeing with your point of view.
The funny thing about this thread, is that I KNOW you and Hawthorn are probably right on target in your opinions of Sondhi and those involved in the Coup, which is what my point was all along...but based on the way YOU and HE have acted in this thread, I really wish you were wrong because you guys are pretty damn hard to like.
Not to sound like an idiot, but will you stake your reputation on this?
That this Muslim General has no ulterior motive, and that he won't end up giving the rebels power that they, as criminals, do not deserve.
Can you?
Thanks for laying out the facts. I like people who get it like you do.
That this Muslim General has no ulterior motive, and that he won't end up giving the rebels power that they, as criminals, do not deserve.
Based off of what I know about him prior to the coup and based off what people assigned to his command at Lopburi have told me, 100% yes.
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