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Posted on 09/03/2006 9:07:40 PM PDT by ExSoldier
NYPD "Phase Three" Malfunctions
A first-hand report about the mysterious Glock 19 malady
"Phase Three Malfunction? Never heard of it!"
So begins the typical conversation about an annoying gremlin that has been irritating the New York City Police Department Firearms and Tactics Section (FTS) and Glock, Inc. for approximately six years. When NYPD began experiencing a specific type of malfunction, apparently endemic to the Glock Model 19 service weapon, sometime in 1996, the FTS coined the term "Phase Three" to identify this particular non-reducible stoppage, described as basically a jam where a fired casing is partially extracted, the case rim still solidly lodged under the extractor with the mouth of the casing firmly wedged against the barrel hood. The casing is not vertical in position as in a stovepipe malfunction, but rather horizontal, exactly on the same plane as would be a cartridge loaded in the chamber but higher.
Defects in NYPD hanguns
Half subject to jamming
NY Daily News: 21 August 2002
More than half of the Police Department's handguns are subject to jam without warn ing, a potentially dangerous flaw that can leave the weapons a "useless as paperweights," police sources said.
Although the jamming is rare, the NYPD has been con cerned enough to order a recall of 24,000 semiauto mat ic Glock handguns so they can be refitted.
This problem affects the Glock Model 19 – the gun carried by about 60% of the department's 39,000 officers. The flaw, in which the shell casing fails to eject, has only arisen during practice and tests at the NYPD firing range, officials say.
"Our studies have shown this to be a rare occurrence," said police spokesman Chief Michael Collins. "In the worst-case scenario... we esti ma ted that this has happened only once in 450,000 times when fired."
However, during an actual gun battle in Brooklyn, two Emergency Service Unit Officers reported that their Glocks failed. Collins said that after and investigation of the October 2000 incident, ballistics experts said what ever problem those guns had, it was not the jamming malfunction that is the subject of the current recall.
To correct the problem, the Austrian-based Glock com pany has sent engineers to the NYPD's firing range at Rodman's Neck in the Bronx. Since June, they have re pair ed 3,200 weapons in a pro cedure that takes about an hour. Immediately afterward, officers tested the refitted weapons at the range, where the results have been ex cell ent, Collins said. The process will continue until all 24,000 Glocks are fixed, he said.
There is a delay in fixing all the weapons, sources said, because cutbacks and the redeployment of officers to special details have made it difficult for cops to schedule time to have their guns repaired.
Sources also said that some of the Glocks have a different problem – locking. When a gun locks, a user can get it functioning again by re mov ing the clip and holding the ammunition and manually moving the slide to eject the stuck shell casing.
In that scenario, the source said, "You can be back in the gun battle in a matter of seconds, as opposed to the total jam where the guns become [as] useless as paperweights."
This type of malfunction is non-reducible by currently trained methods. The tap, rack, roll or tap, rack, bang or lock, rip, rack, etc. is not a feasible course of corrective action because the slide is locked up tight in the position of holding the partially extracted casing.
The example I actually handled was so badly locked up that it resisted a hammer and screwdriver. Pat Rogers, (retired NYPD and Gunsite Rangemaster) has advised that the ones he encountered at Gunsite were reducible using a pen or like device as a prying instrument.
This is not the type of situation one would like to face during a defensive encounter. Similar malfunctions have also occurred with other law enforcement agencies, and at least one non-DOD government agency (using M882 Ball ammo), but by far the most occurrences are seen within the NYPD. This is understandable when you consider that there are over 25,000 Glock Models 19 in the hands of NYPD MOS. No other agency deploys this particular weapon in such large numbers on a daily basis.
When this issue first arose circa 1996 the NYPD was utilizing a standard pressure 115 grain FMJ round produced specifically for the department by Winchester. It was designated a non-standard load by Winchester, and identified as the "Q4146" round. Since this was not a very hot load it was postulated that the ammo was the cause of this malfunction.
Unfortunately, when the NYPD transitioned in 1999 to a "hot" 124 grain +P Speer GDHP that was specifically "souped up" to around 1225 FPS, the occurrences of Phase Three's diminished, but did not altogether disappear. It should be noted that during this time frame none of the other department-approved 9mm semi-automatic pistols in use experienced a single Phase Three malfunction.
As this malfunction became more of an issue, the Department naturally approached Glock, Inc. and requested assistance. At the onset, Glock refused to acknowledge the problem and only reluctantly agreed to replace one-for-one the guns that displayed the problem. NYPD felt that this did not address the issue properly. I personally know one officer, one of the most senior members assigned to the Emergency Services Unit, who had two different Model 19 pistols Phase Three on him three times on two consecutive days. This MOS is a great shooter and knows how to operate in a hostile environment. He gave up and purchased an S&W Model 59461 from the approved list.
While NYPD itself was attempting to downplay the issue with MOS by asserting that the Phase Three malfunction had only occurred at the department range during practice and qualification sessions, they were, unfortunately, being less than truthful. As a Sergeant in a confidential investigative unit in mid-1997 I personally delivered to the range a Model 19 that had locked up tight after a Detective got off one round in a street confrontation. Fortunately the perps fled after that first shot and my guy was uninjured. In 1998 as a Lieutenant I worked with a police officer whose Model 19 did the same thing in a running gunfight. Fortunately for him he was with other MOS whose guns did not malfunction, and the bad guy was turned into a colander.
Clearly this issue was getting out of hand and both the NYPD hierarchy and Glock management realized it.
Glock finally stood up and took notice when the NYPD contacted Sturm Ruger and requested pricing and delivery times for that company to replace every Glock Model 19 currently in use by the department with one of the Ruger P-series 9 X 19mm pistols. In response, Glock began taking a look at the extractor and the geometry of the surfaces of the slide and barrel hood in the area of the ejection port. As a result of this situation Glock began to make an earnest effort to correct the problem by making modifications to the design of the Model 19.
In July 2001 I was attending the Summer Qualification Cycle at the outdoor range. During the initial brief before the day's shooting began it was announced that every shooter would be putting 100 rounds through some "experimental" Glocks which the Department was testing. The stated goal was to put at least one million rounds through them in order to fully evaluate the design. Each shooter was issued an "experimental" Glock Model 19 and three magazines with the orange base plates. A brief visual examination prior to shooting disclosed it to be a rather standard looking third generation Model 19 with the finger grooves and rail. The only noticeable design difference was the extractor. It had a square protrusion of extra metal on the leading edge closest to the chamber. My initial impression was that it was designed as a loaded chamber indicator. During shooting, however, the "experimental" Model 19 proved to be problematic. All shooters were asked to advise the line officers of any and all problems with the weapons. I began shooting slowly to check out the action and immediately noticed a strange "stutter" as the gun cycled. Upon holding the trigger fully rearward after each shot I found that in 60% of the shots fired the slide would stay about 1/16 of an inch out of battery until the trigger was released and allowed to cycle forward. At that time the slide would go into full battery.
I called over the nearest range officer and directed him to observe the rear of the slide of the weapon as I fired. He picked up on it immediately without my having to explain the problem to him, commenting: "The slide is staying back until you release the trigger." He stayed behind me for the rest of that box of ammo and observed the functioning of the weapon. During a break to reload magazines he noted the serial number of the pistol on the rear of the score sheet along with a description of the event.
For the second box of ammo I shot rapid-fire exclusively to see if the function of the weapon was affected. I had two failures to go into battery; the first was about ?-inch out of battery and was reduced by a support-hand smack to the rear of the slide. The second, about two magazines later was a full failure to chamber with the nose of the next round buried in the feed ramp. A sharp tap to the base plate of the magazine reduced it. In both cases shooting resumed after corrective action was taken with no further difficulty. Not too impressive a performance for the "experimental" Glock.
When speaking with the range officer I asked if this was Glock's answer to the Phase Three problem and he answered in the affirmative and described the new extractor as also serving as a chamber loaded indicator. Although these were not Phase Three malfunctions that I was experiencing that day, my opinion of the "experimental" Model 19 was not at all favorable.
Slowly, the Phase Three issue has begun cropping up in areas previously unsullied. Pat Rogers has reported multiple Models 19 experiencing "Phase Threes" on the line at Gunsite over a three-day period. He relates that a change of ammo corrected the problem for the shooters he was instructing in that group. However, another class shooting the same lot of ammo at the same time had none of their Models 19 burp even once.
Why did one group of 19s choke when the others didn't? Pat himself owned a Model 19 that suffered Phase Three stoppages so consistently that he had no choice but to get rid of it. Internet discussion groups have revealed other police and privately owned Models 19 with the same problems. It is now mid-2002 and the issue is still not resolved.
Glock has had many meetings with the staff of the NYPD FTS and has indeed put effort into a solution. My understanding is that Glock is in the process of attempting a long term solution to this problem but that as of this writing it has yet to be implemented.2
Let me be clear on one thing: I am not bashing the Glock Model 19. I have one that has been utterly reliable for me through literally tens of thousands of rounds since 1992. The Model 19 is a good weapon and if I had to stop carrying my 1911 tomorrow I would not feel uncomfortable using that particular weapon as a carry gun. My issue Model 19 performed well on the streets of NY City for ten years of service. It is my personal belief that if you own a Model 19 that has not experienced a Phase Three with extensive use you are probably good to go. What I am saying is that there is an issue regarding the reliability of some specimens of this model and it must be fully addressed before someone pays the bill on it with their life.
ring a ding ping
some of the Glocks have a different problem – locking. When a gun locks, a user can get it functioning again by removing the clip
GLOCKs have clips? When did this happen?
I registered on GlockTalk today just before posting this, but have not yet been confirmed as a member and thus can't post to the forum.
GLOCKs have clips? When did this happen?
~SIGH~ I didn't write this, nor did I correct the gaffes in terminology. Of course it's a magazine.
You can always carry a back-up M1911...
I have heard about these, but Ive never heard an adequate explaination of WHY it happens.
Does it have anything to do with that crazy NY trigger assembly?
I have two. They are both "Safe Queens." This isn't a thread on the virtues of the 1911. Please stay on topic.
Toime to go to Kimbers.
Duh...did you read post #8? STAY ON TOPIC! I don't care about the 1911!!!! I want to know about the Glock M19. Period.
Over the past few years, I've fired many different semi-auto pistols, and I finally bought a Beretta 92FS (my concealed carry gun is a S&W hammerless 38SP). Up until the time I fired the Beretta, I was leaning toward a CZ. I will say though that the Glock was by far my least favorite gun.
Now, I'm not trying to be smart-a**ed here, but why the fascination with Glocks? Lord knows I'm no expert, but when I'm at the range, I consistently outshoot any Glock with just about any demo gun the range happens to have on hand.
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Careful, the thread fuhrer only wants to discuss the Glock ... love the grips on your Combat Commander, BTW. Ever used the eight round clips?
Thanks Al.
I had one FTF with a poorly crimped round, and one stovepipe on a low power range load during a doubletap while shooting around 30,000 rounds. No FTE's in a Glock here, and I don't recall any of the officers we shoot with having similar failures. I'm glad Glock is coming up with an engineering solution for it.
Guess I lucked out with some good copies.
Why the fascination?
I carry a Glock 26 and it has NEVER failed, malfunction..anything ever..
ALWAYS worked.
Cant say that for my Kimber Gold Match or my Gold Cup. I want to know my pistol will go bang every time I pull the trigger.
Not too much to ask...is it?
No kidding? The 2nd part of my original post wasn't directly at you, rather to the article author -- poking fun at him.
My concern with Glock and Springfield XD is you must pull the trigger to disassemble. In the military we used to collect a few rounds a month in the 55 gallon barrels (with sand) into which the pay officers were to clear their pistols before entry into the finance offices. That is bad enough, but you don't always have a 55 gallon drum handy for clearing.
My other concern with the Glock is the weak point is oriented to push the brass fragments and hot gas down into your firing hand, were the case to let go. A good argument to stay away from +P ammunition.
I would prefer an automatic that gave full support to the cartridge case. Paraordinance has that, with the LDA trigger that is the logical extension to the Glock Trigger.
Revolvers are simple: they can be single action (trigger only releases the hammer) and double action (trigger both cocks and releases the trigger).
Glock triggers are single action, with the trigger mechanism also providing about 1/3rd of the striker cocking power.
Paraordinance LDA triggers fully cock the spring, but the double action moves the hammer to firing position. That enables a very light weight trigger, with a normal strength hammer fall. And the hammer is carried down.
Good luck. If you do go with a Glock or XD, (and they do have significant advantages!) I just recommend you stay well within the pressure rating. If you do want a high power round from a Glock, they make a 10mm version which makes high velocity performance without +P pressures.
Buy a Springfield Armory XD-45 instead.
It's more comfortable for me.
My brother the NYS Trooper, and range instructor, likes them.
I have a Taurus 9mm PT92AF, it never has a feed issue, and I reload.
Lots of these new pistols have recommended ammo, make sure you check the manuals before you buy.
A friend was trying to get me to buy a Kimber-I felt that was a lotta money for something I didn't like as well as the Beretta.
And, I'm glad you enjoy your Glock.
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