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To: Tulsa Ramjet
"He got lonely and made man and gave us free will and a lot of us screw it up"

This is a bit of topic but it's a question I've always been curious about.

Most people assume that God is omniscient and is outside of time. This of course means the past and the future have no meaning for him/her. The implication of this is that God must know all of time as a single 'now' with events in the future just as immediate as those of the past 'were' and the now 'is' (our way of seeing time).

From what I understand God is also a personal god who is vitally interested in each and every person in his creation. This interest coupled with his/her ability to see our future means that God will know both the time and the content of decisions each of us will make in the future. In effect the decisions we make, at least from our standpoint (because we see time as linear), are predetermined.

How does the average Christian deal with the paradox of having free will yet having all decisions predetermined?

238 posted on 09/01/2006 10:21:54 AM PDT by b_sharp (Objectivity? Objectivity? We don't need no stinkin' objectivity.)
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To: b_sharp

"This interest coupled with his/her ability to see our future means that God will know both the time and the content of decisions each of us will make in the future."

I disagree. God knows how it will end, but whether we are there to enjoy it, is up to us. There are many times that God tested man's choice without intervention: 1) Adam and Eve in the garden of eden in having sexual relations thus producing the tree of life and shame for doing something they were told would have great reprocussions. 2) Destroying man through the flood with Noah because we got out of control, and then stating He wouldn't do it again with water, but with fire; 3) Arguing with Moses because Moses felt he couldn't speak to Pharaoah because he was scared so he told Noah to take his brother Aaron to speak for him., etc...
God to not give man freewill to choose to worship is an insincere worship. What joy is that? Might as well be ants in an ant farm. He gets great pleasure of a man that has chosen to live a destructive life and then returns to Him and rectify the ills. This is free will and this is how He made us. Predetermination is of events and outcomes of a greater level. We have to choose to decide if we want to be part of that outcome. A football team can still win games even if a couple of players decide not to give their all. The score, record, and outcome will still stand. And eventually, those players will be forgotten.


248 posted on 09/01/2006 10:38:19 AM PDT by Tulsa Ramjet ("If not now, when?")
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To: b_sharp

I wonder if you would explain something to me from your post? You posted, "How does the average Christian deal with the paradox of having free will yet having all decisions predetermined?" When you use the term 'predetermined', do you mean that God knowing what you will choose is the same as God is responsible for your choice? Do you use that term 'predetermined' to imply there is after all no free choice since God knows your choices before you make them? ... May I point out that one of the evil one's favorite ploys is to cause such chaos and suffering that we conclude God should have intervened and thus our suffering is God's fault?


251 posted on 09/01/2006 10:44:42 AM PDT by MHGinTN (If you can read this, you've had life support from someone. Promote life support for others.)
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To: b_sharp

"...is outside of time."

It depends how you define 'time.'
If God is pure energy of conscious state, which I do believe, then the 1st law of thermodynamics (which to me is one of the best examples of understanding the nature of God), comes into play, and molecular degradation is irrelevant to being, and transformable. Time is a man made measurement to understand and categorize our concept of matter, its relevance, and its relationship to space. God is inside and outside of Time. Its that He gets great joy and sorrow of being inside of time and interracting with the creation of His image. Much like, well, a hamster cage. Seeing man accomplish great feats of charity and science skills is a joy. Seeing man destroy each other because of the color of hamster hair, which hamster has more food, and because which hamster has a home next to the water bottle just infuriates Him.


253 posted on 09/01/2006 10:45:31 AM PDT by Tulsa Ramjet ("If not now, when?")
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To: b_sharp
How does the average Christian deal with the paradox of having free will yet having all decisions predetermined?

Translation:

Let's get the Calvinists and the Armenians fighting. ;^)


Actually, just because HE 'sees' what happens, does not means HE causes them to happen.

303 posted on 09/01/2006 1:34:21 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: b_sharp

My father said that you have free will, but God knows what decision you'll make.

Like a Greek oracle. If you know about it, and try to avoid it, you'll end up making it happen.


359 posted on 09/01/2006 6:38:46 PM PDT by stands2reason (ANAGRAM for the day: Socialist twaddle == Tact is disallowed)
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