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THe Secular Right
Real Clear Politics ^ | Aug. 29, 2006 | Robert Trascinski

Posted on 08/29/2006 6:51:14 AM PDT by headsonpikes

We all know the basic alternatives that form the familiar "spectrum" of American politics and culture.

If a young person is turned off by religion or attracted by the achievements of science, and he wants to embrace a secular outlook, he is told--by both sides of the debate--that his place is with the collectivists and social subjectivists of the left. On the other hand, if he admires the free market and wants America to have a bold, independent national defense, then he is told--again, by both sides--that his natural home is with the religious right.

But what if all of this is terribly wrong? What if it's possible to hold some of the key convictions associated with the right, being pro-free-market and supporting the war, and even to do so more strongly and consistently than most on the right--but still to be secular? What if it's possible to reject the socialism subjectivism of the left and believe in the importance of morality, but without believing in God? ....

(Excerpt) Read more at realclearpolitics.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: aspergers; aynrand; aynrandwasajew; betterthananncoulter; crevolist; godless; mntlslfabusethread; objectivism; secularism; trascinski
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To: Little Ray
The "religious right" is the source of social conservatism (count me in!). Capitalism is the source of fiscal conservatism.

I'm more of a political conservative, based entirely on the historical record - I have no trust in Establishments of any kind, however "justified" they may be in their own eyes.

21 posted on 08/29/2006 9:14:59 AM PDT by headsonpikes (Genocide is the highest sacrament of socialism.)
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To: tutstar

read later


22 posted on 08/29/2006 9:16:49 AM PDT by tutstar (Baptist ping list-freepmail to get on or off)
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To: headsonpikes
Well, yes, but not necessarily of a morality that can be supported rationally.

Exactly. This is the dilemma that man finds himself in.

Atheistic philosophy cannot in and of itself distinguish right from wrong.

And yet, man is a sinner, and by nature will not follow God's natural law.

The wisest course in setting up a system of government is that which the Founders attempted to take, recognizing at the same time the principles that (1) all men are sinners, and therefore extensive checks and balances are needed to be built into the system by which laws originate in order to mitigate this and (2) ultimately the moral validity of all laws rests on God's natural law, and when government becomes too far removed from that (not for light or transient causes), the people retain the right to reform their law-making institutions.

The premise here is that this concept works well only when the people have a respect for God's natural law; if not, one ends up not with the American Revolution, but with the French, or worse.

23 posted on 08/29/2006 9:17:59 AM PDT by SirJohnBarleycorn
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To: headsonpikes

bump for later


24 posted on 08/29/2006 9:21:35 AM PDT by GOP Poet
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To: Matchett-PI
They set our government up primarily based on the biblical worldview. Our laws are based on the requirements of the New Testament "Law of Christ", which is summed up as: Do no harm to your neighbor" -(ie: "Love your neighbor as much, and no more than you love yourself." - The Golden Rule)

Not to nitpick, but the "Golden Rule" pre-dates Judeo-Christianity. You might as well say that our laws are based on the requirements of Zoroastrianism (a predecessor to Judeo-Christian religions eradicated by Islam) or Hinduism.

Another nitpick, is that our laws are based upon English Common Law, whose existence is well-documented in pre-Christian times. Its core philosophies just happen to adequately mesh with later Christian beliefs.

25 posted on 08/29/2006 9:22:18 AM PDT by tortoise
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To: SirJohnBarleycorn
No human laws "pre-date" God's relationship with man.

The Bible says that God wrote His law in the hearts of men, and that man's own conscience bears witness against him.

It sounds like you are saying something, but in reality there isn't anything useful there. You say all law is inspired by God, yet also allow that man-made law can fall short of God's will. So what can we conclude about any given law? Nothing. It could either be consistent or inconsistent with God's will.

Your original contention that all civilized law is based upon Judeo-Christian principles is contradicted by your own claim that societies can err. Therefore not all law is based upon true Judeo-Christian principles.

Historically, the percentage of people aquainted with the Judeo-Christian bible, let alone adhering to it, has been but a subset of the entire earthly population. Your escape around this historical divergence is to claim that everyone already knows all the laws, from the ancient Egyptians to the pre-Columbus American Indians, to the far eastern India Indians.

A simpler explanation is that certain "laws" have rather obvious joint benefits and rational creatures will discover and apply the obvious. No need for a lot of religious mumbo jumbo to explain the obvious.

26 posted on 08/29/2006 9:26:40 AM PDT by Dracian
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To: Junior; b_sharp; Ichneumon; longshadow; CarolinaGuitarman; Thatcherite; Coyoteman; js1138; ...
Pinging "The Few"

27 posted on 08/29/2006 9:27:17 AM PDT by PatrickHenry (The universe is made for life, therefore ID. Life can't arise naturally, therefore ID.)
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To: SirJohnBarleycorn
Atheistic philosophy cannot in and of itself distinguish right from wrong.

Nonsense. Any rational creature can discover common societal norms that when enforced bring a joint mutual benefit. You might personally find that too morally hollow for your tastes, but it leads to a set of laws similar to those discovered by the biblical writers.

28 posted on 08/29/2006 9:30:37 AM PDT by Dracian
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To: angkor
That which enhances life is right, that which diminishes it is wrong.

And what would enhance MY life the most right now would be to choke the living daylights out of everybody that gets in my way.

29 posted on 08/29/2006 9:31:29 AM PDT by ichabod1 (Freedom of religion means freedom to practice IslamĀ®)
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To: Dracian
I'll be happy to clarify my position:

In the final analysis, to the extent they are inherently good, all of the laws and morality of our civilization are ultimately founded on Judeo-Christian beliefs, in other words, God's natural law.

30 posted on 08/29/2006 9:33:50 AM PDT by SirJohnBarleycorn
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To: Dracian
Any rational creature can discover common societal norms that when enforced bring a joint mutual benefit.

Really? Any rational creature?

Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, were these not any rational creatures?

Perhaps the only problem with atheistic philosophy is that TRUE atheistic philosophy has not yet been tried?

31 posted on 08/29/2006 9:37:47 AM PDT by SirJohnBarleycorn
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To: Junior
The old "My God is Better Than Yours" trick.

Your guy sounds like more fun!

32 posted on 08/29/2006 9:39:17 AM PDT by wireman
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To: wireman

More like "My god can beat up your god."


33 posted on 08/29/2006 9:40:18 AM PDT by Junior (Identical fecal matter, alternate diurnal period)
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To: headsonpikes
Oh, poor little secular right, all picked on by the Big Bad Bully of religion. Boohoo.

From the outset of the Religious Right having a place at the table of politics, and it's been less than thirty years, there's been a lot of whining from the non-religious who would really like the RR to leave the GOP--or at least stay very, very quiet and never remind the urban libertarians that JoeSixpack is in the room.

The snobs sob, but the Religious Right still expects a share in the pie and also expects to help with the baking. And we're the only real energy the GOP has.

This is just another essay that expresses a feeling--distaste. Not our kind, dearie. Too bad.

34 posted on 08/29/2006 9:40:52 AM PDT by Mamzelle
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To: SirJohnBarleycorn
Atheistic philosophy cannot in and of itself distinguish right from wrong.

You are wrong here. Believe me when I say an Atheist can distinguish right from wrong, often much better than many professed Christians I have known.

35 posted on 08/29/2006 9:41:18 AM PDT by RadioAstronomer (Senior member of Darwin Central)
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To: tortoise
re: Another nitpick, is that our laws are based upon English Common Law, whose existence is well-documented in pre-Christian times.)))

LOL...in which language are these case books?

36 posted on 08/29/2006 9:44:20 AM PDT by Mamzelle
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37 posted on 08/29/2006 9:44:46 AM PDT by Junior (Identical fecal matter, alternate diurnal period)
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To: PatrickHenry
That is a very well-written article. The only bad news is that not only did it have to be written at all, but it will be rejected by The Mullahs.
38 posted on 08/29/2006 9:46:05 AM PDT by VadeRetro (Liberalism is a cancer on society. Creationism is a cancer on conservatism.)
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To: Junior

No sweat my friend. Firewall "6" is in place and active.


39 posted on 08/29/2006 9:47:02 AM PDT by RadioAstronomer (Senior member of Darwin Central)
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To: SirJohnBarleycorn
to the extent they are inherently good, all of the laws and morality of our civilization are ultimately founded on Judeo-Christian beliefs

The good news is that most Judeo-Christians are rational and will not enact laws that have obvious irrational consequences. Which means that the various religions (and the non-religious) can co-exist under a core set of laws that they find mutually beneficial, even though each sect thinks they were inspired for different reasons and causes.

40 posted on 08/29/2006 9:47:40 AM PDT by Dracian
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