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Can a good Muslim be a good American?
A friend who knows | 8/11/2006 | Agent Smith

Posted on 08/11/2006 6:36:37 AM PDT by Agent Smith

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To: SupplySider
Where is the evidence that most of the world's Muslims are dreaming of death and destruction? Though Islam has a history of violence, I just don't buy that most of its adherents are much different from the other six billion people of the world who simply want to raise a family and live a good life.

I don't know....when push comes to shove....which side will the so called American moderate muslims fall??? Do they follow their religion or do they follow their government??...actually...it's a pretty easy question to answer...and the answer should scare the crap out of you...

1,041 posted on 08/15/2006 1:02:59 PM PDT by Getsmart64
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To: Agent Smith

I have a friend who is a Pakistani muslim. He is really no more muslim than Saddam was though. Because he is not a "good" muslim, he's pretty harmless.

He sure does hate Jews though, and Indians to a lesser extent.


1,042 posted on 08/15/2006 1:03:22 PM PDT by RobRoy (Islam is more dangerous to the world now that Naziism was in 1937.)
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To: kabar

>>So what do you propose to do with the 4 to 6 million American muslims?<<

If this gets hot - internment camps.


1,043 posted on 08/15/2006 1:04:13 PM PDT by RobRoy (Islam is more dangerous to the world now that Naziism was in 1937.)
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To: the invisib1e hand

>>some devout muslims have fought in the war on terror, in US Military.<<

I am thinking of a grenade tossed in a tent a few years ago.

Devout doesn't meen "good". If they are devout and yet sincerely on "our side", they need to read the koran to learn that they are living a contradiction.


1,044 posted on 08/15/2006 1:09:20 PM PDT by RobRoy (Islam is more dangerous to the world now that Naziism was in 1937.)
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To: attiladhun2
Albert Rosenberg, the founder and ideological author of National Socialism, was an atheist who was writing a neopagan bible for Germany and was instituting solar worship as the new religion for the people. Had Germany won the war, a huge shrine for the worship of the Sun-god was planned for central Germany that would have been the focal point of mass pilgrimmages on the soltices and equinoxes.

Ok...but to this day Europe revels in paganistic practices. It is in their history and in their blood. Germany was a mixture of Christian religions...in the Bavaria area, if memory serves, they were mainly Catholic and in the northern part of the country they were Lutheran...Germany was a Christian nation...Europe is a Christian continent....but they still burn this years leftover crops hoping for a good crop next year...

1,045 posted on 08/15/2006 1:38:38 PM PDT by Getsmart64
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To: highball
Yes, most certainly, I would try to present to Muslim children the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and pray that the Holy spirit will peel back the shroud of darkness and woo them to the Saviour. NEVER by human force. NEVER with hatred toward them if they reject the Gospel.

We attempt to evangelize American citizens by the Gospel of Christ on a daily basis, regardless of their religious background. What does being an American citizen have to do with THAT? Nothing. We are missionaries who have served in four Asian countries. Nationality is not an issue to us at all when it comes to presenting the Gospel, whether the backgrounds of the hearers are Muslim, Methodist, Lutheran, Catholic, Baptist or anything else.

We witness to Methodists who have not yet been converted to Christ (my wife was one of those until she was genuinely born again in 1977). We witness to Baptists who have not yet been genuinely converted to Christ (I was one of those until I was born again in 1977). We witness to Muslims with no different attitude: They need Jesus Christ.

Our children do witness. While they are presenting the Gospel, someone might try to impress them with the "virtues" of Methodism or Presbyterianism, or another. But my children understand that it is not religious labels that save folks, but the Saviour, Jesus Christ Who has already provided Salvation by the Cross. A Muslim might also attempt to impress my children with the "glories" of Islam. Their frame of heart and mind will be the same: Those raised Muslim need Jesus Christ. It's as simple as that.

No violence, no force, no hatred, no reprisals. Present the Gospel. That's all, except for praying earnestly. God's Holy Spirit must do the drawing, the wooing, the convincing and the convicting, through the Words of the Living God which were presented.

If that's reprehensible to you, it is because you do not know the work of Christ's Cross or the work of His Holy Spirit, and you too need Jesus Christ.
1,046 posted on 08/15/2006 5:12:45 PM PDT by Free Baptist
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To: highball

Eager? No. Willing to risk temporary, possible, damage- yes.
Because the threat we are facing is so final that it would be a necessary evil to prevent a greater one.
Franklins words- yes, I understand them. But I also understand that the founding fathers of this country were not all-knowing and all-seeing. There is no mention of suitcase nukes in the Constitution either, because such dangers could not have been imagined then. Does that mean they pose no danger? EVERY danger that would face this nation was not forseen by our founding fathers; and to refuse to face them because they were not is suicidal.
I also don't remember any part of the Constitution or Bill of Rights that says 'unless it is specifically named it is not a threat, and knowledge and events that occur in the future are not to be factored into this document.'

Are you saying that the Constitution prevents us from learning of, and identifying new dangers and protecting ourselves against them?
As for Islam being a never-ending threat, has it ever NOT been a threat in it's centuries of existence? It will continue to be a threat to humanity and civilization as long as it is tolerated- as long as the barbaric Koran goes unchanged and its hate speech expunged by the 'good Islamic majority'.
When will Muslims in this country get back freedoms? When they 'take back' their 'hijacked' religion. When Islam gives up the idea of an Islamic ruled world. When it's women are treated like free humans, not dispensable property. When they declare jihad on the terrorists their religion is producing-and eliminate them!

When will WE- the non-Islamic, terrorized citizens of a free country get back OUR freedom to travel and work in office buildings and not worry about domestic terrorism on our own soil ? OUR freedom is already lost in the name of PC and fairness. We have infuriated and inconvenienced millions for the sake of one group! We have to look over our shoulders, endure body checks, bomb scans, worry about safety in public places, on planes, trains, buses, schools.
All INSTEAD of dealing with the ONE GROUP that is producing this fear and danger. Musn't insult or disrespect Muslims- oh no! That is the ultimate sin! Much better to rearrange our entire society and live in fear while the next Mohammed Atta's walk among us! Right?

I will consider us free when this fear is gone. Islam is causing the fear planet-wide. If the rest of the world is too weak to stand up to Islam, so be it- but it CAN and SHOULD be kept away from the country I care most about. OURS.The threat CAN be ended in the US- but not as easily, kindly or fairly as you'd like. Islam is an ugly enemy. Ugly enemies force good people to do ugly things to stop them.

It WILL come to this- a Muslim free America, or an Islamic America. Not because we don't have a plethora of tolerant, trusting types like you- but because Islam will NOT have it any other way.


1,047 posted on 08/15/2006 6:17:58 PM PDT by ClearBlueSky (Whenever someone says it's not about Islam-it's about Islam. Jesus loves you, Allah wants you dead!)
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To: Getsmart64
Sorry to butt in...but...you being a Professor...of what I have no idea...I hardly believe you will fight anything for anyone....if your so called American Fascists start rounding up muslims...I hardly doubt you will pick up a physical weapon and fight them...your weapon will be a war of wasted words....and if you do start seeing the light...I'm not sure anyone on our side will want anything to do with you..as you were part of the problem that got us to that point....

Your reply was so preciously ignorant that I had to reprint the whole thing. All I can say is, "just try me."

1,048 posted on 08/15/2006 6:33:46 PM PDT by zook ("We all knew someone in primary school who had a really powerful magnet")
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To: Free Baptist

Yes, trying to convert children away from the faith of their parents is reprehensible.

Witnessing to adults is always fair game. But trying to insert yourself into the right of parents to raise their own children as they wish is both reprehensible and unforgiveably arrogant.

I trust you'd have no absolutely problem with your children being taught the joys and wonders of Islam?


1,049 posted on 08/16/2006 6:55:47 AM PDT by highball (Proud to announce the birth of little Highball, Junior - Feb. 7, 2006!)
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To: ClearBlueSky

You're trying to have it both ways.

Either Islam is a "never-ending threat," and therefore you're advocating suspending the Constitution indefinitely, or the risk to the Constitution is "temporary" and therefore Islam is not in itself an indefinite threat. You could try to make one claim or the other, but they cancel each other out when you try to claim both.

This sort of double-talk is how people give up their liberties in the first place. Don't forget that it took us over a century to get rid of the "temporary" telephone tax imposed to raise funds for the Spanish-American War.


1,050 posted on 08/16/2006 7:07:07 AM PDT by highball (Proud to announce the birth of little Highball, Junior - Feb. 7, 2006!)
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To: highball

Once again you avoid the cogent points in defense of Islam- not our Constitution. Our freedom has already been taken from us because of Islam. Trying to sissy-step around the members of a dangerous cult has left this country-this world- incarcerated by fear. You're worried about freedoms that MIGHT be lost temporarily for some, when everyone is already much less free!
When will the freedom to fly without worrying about Muslims blowing the plane up return?
When will the freedom to walk into an airport, train station, etc without being searched like a criminal ,return?
When will we be free of the fear of public buildings, schools, etc being bombed by Muslims?
When will the freedom to live without fear of Muslims return?
That basic freedom has been lost, but how many are upset enough about it to act? Are you willing to permanently surrender our freedom to live without fear of Muslim terrorism ?
It is a basic human reaction to fear that which threatens your life- why is Islam exempt?
Why is it perfectly reasonable, and politically accepted, for a black family to fear, and loathe, a family of KKK members next door? We understand that. It is the people who hold to the KKK mentality that we ostracize, is it not? Why?
Because they have a BELIEF that espouses hatred and violence toward blacks. They may never act on it- but the black family has every right to feel threatened by them regardless.They are threatened by them!
But we can't feel threatened by Muslims living among us whose BELIEF SYSTEM espouses hatred and violence toward us?
No- the blacks aren't suggesting rounding up all KKK types, because they don't number in the millions; but they don't trust them and do feel threatened by them.
Yet we are bad, intolerant reactionaries if we feel threatened by members of a violent, dangerous 'religion'? We should feel guilty distrusting them?
1000 KKK members don't get a pass when it comes to being distrusted and hated for their beliefs, but millions of Muslims do? When was the last time the KKK terrorized the world? I'll bet you'd sneer at, and revile ,someone who admitted they were a KKK member, wouldn't you? Would you assume he was a good person in spite of his reprehensible beliefs about blacks?Yet you insist that we assume a Muslim is a sweet, good person DESPITE their membership in a world-wide cult of violence and death.

Look- it comes down to this- do you trust Muslims by default? You think we can afford to when it comes to death?
I don't. I will never. So you can feel like a good, righteous protector of the Constitution while you enable those whose dream is to see it replaced by Islamic law.
You trust them , the next Mohammed Atta is counting on people like you. Every naive, trusting person who didn't want to look at him with suspicion BECAUSE he was Muslim helped him get on that plane!
You feel better if the next Atta is running free, I'll feel better if he's in an internment camp( if not on a one-way trip to the nearest Islamic hellhole).
I'd rather he be deprived of every freedom except the freedom to breathe, eat and sleep -and be wrong to do it- than give him the freedom to murder more innocents.
Then MY freedom to live without fear of being killed by Islamic terror is restored.
I'm sure if we could ask the people who were killed on 9-11 what they would have preferred, they would have chosen their lives over the Muslim terrorists 'rights'.
You go on trusting them all- hoping none of them are the next terrorists.
I'll go on distrusting them all and wanting every last one of them out of society. We'll see whose opinion the Muslims validate.


1,051 posted on 08/16/2006 8:53:34 AM PDT by ClearBlueSky (Whenever someone says it's not about Islam-it's about Islam. Jesus loves you, Allah wants you dead!)
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To: Agent Smith
one nation under God," the Christian's God is loving and kind,

Our God is the author of abindant life and freedom. Their God is the author of death, and bondage.
1,052 posted on 08/16/2006 8:58:55 AM PDT by Delphinium
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To: zook

From your postings in this thread...you've already cowered...you are no threat to anyone but yourself...


1,053 posted on 08/16/2006 9:47:06 AM PDT by Getsmart64
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To: Getsmart64

"From your postings in this thread...you've already cowered...you are no threat to anyone but yourself..."

C'mon, big guy. Just come out and admit you're one of those American fascists, one of those who wants to put innocent people into concentration camps. If you are, then you're one of the biggest cowards on FR.

You'd be surprised at how many, let's just say, "well-prepared" professors there are out here.


1,054 posted on 08/16/2006 11:10:11 AM PDT by zook ("We all knew someone in primary school who had a really powerful magnet")
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To: ClearBlueSky
Our freedom has already been taken from us because of Islam.

I can see there's precious little point in debating with you, if this hysterical hyperbole is the best you can do.

"Our freedom has already been taken from us"? Sheesh. You feel threatened, but we don't legislate based on feelings. That's Dim territory, not a conservative position.

You personally might be willing to trade Constitutional protections for a little of Ben Franklin's "temporary safety," but fortunately you don't get to make that call for all of us.

1,055 posted on 08/16/2006 11:10:46 AM PDT by highball (Proud to announce the birth of little Highball, Junior - Feb. 7, 2006!)
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To: kabar

Sounds like you've gotten your pro-Islamic taking points down pat. Who is your source, CAIR? Everytime Muslim atrocities are brought up they bring up stuff that happened during the 3d Reich, ignoring, of course, the near-universal support the Muslims gave both Mussolini and Hitler. Ignoring, of course, the fact the Muslim SS helped run concentration camps for the Nazis in the Balkans. Yes, indeed, you are a good little dhimmi. So dhimmi on, maybe they'll keep you around for laughs when the khalifa is set up.


1,056 posted on 08/16/2006 11:49:11 AM PDT by attiladhun2 (Islam is a despotism so vile that it would warm the heart of Orwell's Big Brother)
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To: kabar

But that is the color of sash Christians were required to wear in Islamic countries until fairly recent times. White for Zoroastrians and Sabeans, and red for Jews. It was a sign of second-class citizenship in the Islamic umma. BTW, non-Muslims are still 2d-class citizens in Muslim countries even to this day, these same countries you seem to greatly admire.


1,057 posted on 08/16/2006 11:54:33 AM PDT by attiladhun2 (Islam is a despotism so vile that it would warm the heart of Orwell's Big Brother)
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To: Getsmart64
Europe is post-Christian. The EU recently refused to even acknowledge God or the place of Christianity in Europe's history in its Constitution.

German schools of theology eagerly embraced higher criticism, Hegelianism, and Darwinism. Consequently, the the Bible and historic creeds were set aside in favor of a theology based on nationalism (a form of idolatry) and naturalism. Nazism is a philosophy that is repugnant to any form of orthodox Christianity since it is based on the worship of the state and its incarnation in the form of der Fuhrer.

To say that Christians were responsible for the Holocaust is no more honest than claiming Christians were responsible for Stalin's purges in the 1930s. Both states had post-Christian governments, both were ruled by men who rejected Christianity as young men and who had embraced an anti-Christian Weltanschauung.
1,058 posted on 08/16/2006 12:19:32 PM PDT by attiladhun2 (Islam is a despotism so vile that it would warm the heart of Orwell's Big Brother)
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To: highball
"I trust you'd have no absolutely problem with your children being taught the joys and wonders of Islam?"

We spent the years 1998 through 2004 in the Philippines where we encountered Muslims on a daily basis. We were often given Islamic materials, which were studied by our children. They are well studied in Biblical Christianity, as we have daily Bible study in our own home. We are not afraid in the least for our children to be introduced to Islam...they have seen it in operation...have spoken to Muslims, like we have, in the markets in southern Luzon Island. Our children can not be forced to be Christians. We have a five year old who is not yet a Christian. Our older ones have embraced Christ and Biblical Christianity by faith. It's truth (Biblical Christianity) over a lie (Islam). Simple as that.

Thousands of churches around the U.S. pick up children in neighborhoods in buses and vans every Sunday and take them to hear the Gospel of Christ. This is, in your opinion, reprehensible, because they are not adults? I make no apologies for distributing Bible/Christian literature in public places, even to children. Reprehensible? To you, I guess. But that may be the only chance they have to know the Savior.

In communist countries it is illegal to have children in church. Are you sure you haven't taken a page from Marx or Stalin?
1,059 posted on 08/16/2006 12:33:56 PM PDT by Free Baptist
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To: Free Baptist
I do not care what happened to you in the Philippines. You go to another country, and you live by their customs.
Thousands of churches around the U.S. pick up children in neighborhoods in buses and vans every Sunday and take them to hear the Gospel of Christ. This is, in your opinion, reprehensible, because they are not adults?

I didn't say that.

Parents have the right to bring up their children without interference. I'm presuming that the vans you decribe are picking up the children with the approval of their parents and aren't roaming around abducting minors.

I make no apologies for distributing Bible/Christian literature in public places, even to children. Reprehensible? To you, I guess. But that may be the only chance they have to know the Savior.

It is not your job to introduce anyone else's children to the Savior. It is the job of parents to introduce their own children to their faith.

So yes, presuming to interfere with that family bond is reprehensible.

1,060 posted on 08/16/2006 12:43:06 PM PDT by highball (Proud to announce the birth of little Highball, Junior - Feb. 7, 2006!)
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