Posted on 05/30/2006 7:02:57 AM PDT by gallaxyglue
By KAREN W. ARENSON Published: May 30, 2006 It is a kind of Alice-in-Wonderland idea. If you do not finish high school, head straight for college. Suzanne DeChillo/The New York Times ...But many colleges — public and private, two-year and four-year — will accept students who have not graduated from high school or earned equivalency degrees...In New York, the issue flared in a budget battle this spring. There are nearly 400,000 students like Ms. Pointer nationwide, accounting for 2 percent of all college students, 3 percent at community colleges and 4 percent at commercial, or profit-making, colleges, according to a survey by the United States Education Department in 2003-4. That is up from 1.4 percent of all college students four years earlier....(S)ome educators say even students who could not complete high school should be allowed to attend college. Nowhere is this contradiction more evident than in California. This year, 47,000 high school seniors, about 10 percent of the class, have not passed the exit examinations required to graduate from high school. They can still enroll in many colleges, although they are no longer eligible for state tuition grants. State Senator Deborah Ortiz, Democrat of Sacramento, has proposed legislation to change that. "As long as the opportunity to go to college exists for students without a diploma," Ms. Ortiz said, "qualifying students from poor or low-income families should remain entitled to college financial aid."
(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...
See my #18 re: I was like.
Yeah, really. A measure of intelligence all by itself.
I believe that in ten years or so there are going to be so many more options for education than are out there now, many rendering college obsolete. The internet has opened up a wealth of self-education.
For people in business, who cares whether a person has taken coursework in the arts if they are supposed to perform in the business environment. One can learn all that BS on one's own time. How many of us just "played the game" for grades but learned nothing in many liberal arts courses.
Of the typical 40 course, 128 credit hour, 8-semester program for a degree in say business, only about 12 of those courses, or 40-50 credit hours are particular to the business disicpline, and some of those are relegated to worthless due to teachers more preoccupied with other things such as research and that don't give a crap about actually teaching anyone anything. One could learn more about actual business on one's own in two years of self study with some help and an apprenticeship.
Perhaps apprenticeships (white collar), or internships will make a comeback. IMO that'd be a much better system. A semester of school, as semester of work, with the school being 90% related to the specific discipline. Who cares about "general education" requirements, which are really forced liberalism in most cases. As to the pertinent stuff, literature, etc., let students find out what they like on their own. And who's to decide which kind of crap to shove down someone's throat. How about more poly-sci stuff for example instead of all kinds of "socialogical" nonsense.
one's=ones
It is no longer a place to become a well rounded individual.
(we have arrived at brave new world where classic literature is no longer known)
Agreed. Nicely stated in sentence 2. Of all the lit I ever had to take, little of it was of the classic variety, and that wasn't anytime recently. So it isn't just today's schools.
Having said that, one can function just fine in this world in business or other, w/o a strong background in classic lit. I don't have one. Frankly, while I agree with you, I also have little interest in fiction lit of any kind. I can't get through half a novel to save my life. I eat up non-fiction however.
But you're right, there's no well-roundedness coming out of secondary or post secondary schools these days other than what students make for themselves. That can also be done apart from school however, although schools are a fun place to do such things b/c students have more time than the average person in the routines of daily life.
*****Yeah, to be honest, I have to make an exception for hard science. I should probably say "liberal arts" education is a waste of time and money and leave it at that. That covers high school and most college. But you're right, engineering and other hard sciences are necessary disciplines that require high level education. Then again, I'm sure engineers are required to take some real waste-of-time courses to get their degree.*****
Haha, I agree with you now! We always rip on those in the College of Liberal Arts. I particularly love the "Liberal Arts, Undeclared" students. correction: "students"
I met this guy in engineering, we got to talking and I asked what he was studying. He told me "I'm majoring in Mechanical Engineering and minoring in English." I said "so you're in both the College of Engineering and Liberal Arts...does that mean you make fun of yourself?"
Regarding waste-of-time courses, I would say the only real wastes were the government courses. Not that they had an agenda or anything, but you really didnt learn much. Some consider history a waste, but I love history.
Funny story. I took a class my freshman year, called "Environmental Issues in Government." Pretty much a bullsh*t class. Regardless, the professor kept the class pretty middle-of-the-road, but I could tell he was a liberal, simply by the fact that he taught a course with a name like that. Well, one day, I'm walking back from the stadium (GO LONGHORNS!) with a couple buddies of mine, and we see this car broken down in a parking lot. My friend goes and gets his car, we jumpstart the car, and this nasty billowing black smoke comes pouring out of the tailpipe. Something was not right. Then I recognize the driver as the professor I'd had the semester before. I make some quip about how he needs to get the car checked out, and "more concerning" how horrible that is for the environment. He laughed it off with a "yeah yeah, I know, I know", and then I introduced myself and told him that I was in his Environmental class the semester before. He got a little sheepish, and I found it pretty funny.
Jeez, sorry about the long post.
The interpretations are pretty much the opposite of each other (a paraphrase, versus a more accurate verbal-plus account). It'll probably take awhile for the definition to settle down.
I dont know about that. I would consider myself, and many of my friends, much more well-rounded than I was four years ago, which was still pretty well-rounded.
Regarding the classics, I'd have to somewhat agree with you there. They are no longer as highly regarded as (I'm sure) they were, but I went to a pretty good high school with good advanced classes, in which we thoroughly picked apart Dante and Chaucer and Shakespeare and such.
of"T"en with the hard "T" is still tough to accept.
I still remember it was a mark of illiteracy to pronounce the t.
Yeah, we are. I missed the memo that said "last ones" takes an apostrophe. When did that change?
I was like...thinking that like college was a place to go and like, learn or something....then I realized that colleges are like totalllllly in to watching the bottom line and that some of them will like give a degree to anyone who can fog a mirror if they stick around long enough and pay enough money...
Employers want committed, disciplined workers.
Rote knowledge can be acquired from any reference book.
BUMP
you have to think about the qualify of some of our high schools, and also maturation rates of students. I've seen successful adults who struggled or even dropped out of high school, but who eventually found their 'niche' and went on to significant success.
If a student's mind hasn't been challenged during the K-12 years, s/he may find a stint in the military or the 'real world' awakens his or her mind and brings about a focus that has very practical uses that can be brought to fruition in college.
All education isn't achieved in a classroom. In fact, overall precious little IS.
Here in Dallas, Richland Community College goes one better. It has obtained a charter as a high school. For juniors and seniors it offers a curriculum of college courses for dual credit and, upon completion, confers an HS diploma. If the student applies himself and required no developmental courses (ie, remedial courses to make up for the deficiency of his high school education) he'll get an AA also. Since it's a charter school, it's entirely funded by the school districts, so tuition, books and fees are "free" to the parents. Coursework is college level, so it's intellectually challenging and there's less busy-work and time-wasting than in traditional high school.
That is why so many industries are now self regulating with certifications. Some good, some bad. But there is a growing trend to value industry certifications above college education.
I would disagree. If I want disciplined thinking... hire people from the military. Most college kids are fuzzy headed and unable to prioritize.
Whatever.
I have to confess, I hated public school, graduated by the skin of my teeth. But I pulled an average 3.8 and above in college. If I were a millionaire I would still be attending college taking this class and that.
In Public School I would nod off in class. But in College I could move at my own pace which is pretty fast, I loved it. They were as different as night and day and I still don't understand it.
Maybe I should have worded it differently, but I didnt say that college was the ONLY way. Far from it. I just dont think we could do so on such a large scale. My reasoning behind this is because college is about much more than studying and taking exams. It's about finding out what you're passionate about. It's an opportunity for young people to get a taste of what the different areas of studies are about, and where they want to go with their life. Then you take courses to increase your knowledge in a particular field, and you graduate.
I'm only 7 hours away from graduating, and I'm currently working my 3rd summer as an internship with a major engineering corporation, and am loving it! Which is why I'm glad I didnt stick with computer science, which was what I thought i wanted to do out of high school...it just wasnt for me, and I realized that my first year in college.
That being said, I agree with you that the college degree is a good compass but not the driving force behind what you will make of your life. That falls on the individual's personal drive to succeed. (One reason liberals dont want to leave Academia and become professors, in my opinion). And good for you for all that you accomplished. No degree could give you that. That's just a piece of paper. What you do and who you become is entirely up to you. A college degree is just a stepping stone, necessary for some, and not for others, but in any case, not a bad thing to have.
Cheers! =)
Yeah, and it's a good thing. Most of those are specific to certain technical disciplines, many in the high-tech (read computer) industries. The companies CYA that way too.
I see more of that happening in other areas as well. Business is a prime candidate. I would almost rather hire somebody that I can get to ditch much of what they learned anyway. I had a professor in college that was "the cat's meow" according to the Business school. But the guy was something 'back in the day,' but his methodologies were grossly ignorant of modern day business practices.
Many of us saw right through that and simply went through the motions, but I'm sure some thought that what was good in 1960 in corporate management was fine in the '80s and '90s. Hiring people like that, you just have to retrain/reeducate them. I'd rather have a blank slate to work with reducing the amount of noise and interference.
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