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What does it matter what they were in the first place? Are you honestly saying that someone can never change their beliefs? You're right, they were not Christians to begin with. So what? People are allowed to change what they believe.

But the fact is they havent changed their beliefs. They have only, momentarily, replaced their idols with crosses because they have been paid large sums of money to do so. Everything else reamins the same. The lowes economic strata that the Missionaries target (because they are the most vulnerable) who lack the most back education or other aminities what would they understand about Christianity and the Gospel? A few handout would make more sense. The problem is when the material benefits from the Missioaries wear out the idols come back.

You are VERY paranoid. You honestly think that a Hindu converting to Christianity because he/she heard about it is somehow forcing or enticing? You must be joking.

Look I live in India and know more about the conversion activities taking place in India. Here people have also seen the ugly side of Christianity in addition to the good side.

I have news for you, once they are baptized, they are Christians, regardless of what they were before.

In that case why do they start praying to their old idols back again. They were not fully baptized I guess.

Would you make the same assertion about Christians who become (as you say) "so-called" Hindu? That because they were not Hindu to begin with they would not be fully Hindu?

That is absolutely insane.

They were always Hindus for ages. Any ways conversion is always about intolerance and denying ones past. Hindus dont object to worship of Jesus, Hindus also worship Jesus, just that they dont start breaking their idols, insult Hindus as pagan demon worshippers, deny thier own past, change their names to western ones, wipe out every sign of their ancient culture, heritage and ethos. This is not religion but a form of fascist straight jacket that must be stopped.

So maybe your government should do something about the poverty? And I find it hard to believe that no conversions are sincere. Sorry, I just find that hard to believe. And missionaries target the poor because they need the most help.

Look I live in India and know more about the conversion activities taking place in India. Here people have also seen the ugly side of Christianity in addition to the good side.

Ok. So? There are good and bad people in every religion. Hindus as well.

In that case why do they start praying to their old idols back again. They were not fully baptized I guess.

Fully baptized? Doesn't work that way. If they return to Hinduism (sp?) their baptism is still valid. They can reject their faith if they like, but they are still baptized. There are no "half-baptisms."

They were always Hindus for ages.

People can change.

Any ways conversion is always about intolerance and denying ones past.

Intolerance? How so? Not believing something does not mean you do not tolerate it. Denying ones past? No. If a Hindu convert to Catholicism said, "I was never a Hindu" then that would be denial. But if he says, "I was Hindu but now I am Catholic" then all that means is he changed his beliefs. There is no denial of his past there. Just a change of what he believes now.

Hindus dont object to worship of Jesus, Hindus also worship Jesus, just that they dont start breaking their idols, insult Hindus as pagan demon worshippers, deny thier own past, change their names to western ones, wipe out every sign of their ancient culture, heritage and ethos.

Wipe out their ancient culture, heritge and ethos? Do you know anything of the Eastern Catholic Churches? They are fully in union with Rome yet they retain their cultures, and even their own methods of worship. Certainly they believe in one God, but that is what Christianity is.

This is not religion but a form of fascist straight jacket that must be stopped.

It most certainly is not. It is a person saying, "I no longer find truth in this religion. I now find it in that one, so I am now a member of that religion." Why is this so horrible to you?

" A few handouts would make more sense. The problem is when the material benefits from the Missionaries wear out the idols come back."

So you're saying that people convert to Christian, load up on material benefits and then convert back to Hindu? From a material point of view, that's profitable to the convert/reconvert and a huge waste of money and effort on the part of the missionary. So, what you're opposed to is crafty Hindus conning and exploiting missionaries?

No, I know that's not your concern. But your argument is all over the place.

Similarly, you have argued both that humanitarian and educational outreach are OK, and that there is no such thing as sincere humanitarian and educational outreach.

You wrote: "Any ways conversion is always about intolerance and denying ones past."

"Intolerance" is a loaded but ambiguous word. Intolerance toward good things is bad; intolerance toward bad things is good. I'm intolerant of slavey, rape, and lynchings. How about you?

You mention without apparent objection that Hindus worship Jesus alongside many other gods. You at least imply that Christianity would be OK if it were preached as a polytheistic religion. But if the Christianity being preached is not polytheistic, you interpret it as imperialistic.

Consider this as a hypothetical: a person could become convinced that all the good things in his or her past could be preserved, and even find a creative and authentic development, in a different religious setting. Hindus who worship Jesus in a polytheistic way, obviously think that their Hindu religious values are expressed and developed through their devotion to Jesus. Such a person could conceivably go from a "polytheistic Jesus" to a "monotheistic Jesus" without demonizing his whole Hindu past: he could see the past as prologue (as do, for instance, messianic Jews.)

I can't see how that could injure you, the seeker's Hindu neighbors, or the secular state of India.

Do you think the 17 million Indian Catholics have the right to practice their religion? Even though it's monotheistic?

Are you against the right of these 17 million Indian Catholics to share the faith with their families, neighbors, friends? You are against organized efforts to spread the Gospel. Are you OK with disorganized efforts?

If what you're trying to do is to defend the human dignity of the ordinary Indian Hindu, then I'm with you.

But the fact is they havent changed their beliefs. They have only, momentarily, replaced their idols with crosses because they have been paid large sums of money to do so.

What gives you the right to speak for them, do you really beleive that you can read their minds?

You live in Pune, in urban India and you wish to speak for rural India?

just that they dont start breaking their idols, insult Hindus as pagan demon worshippers, deny thier own past, change their names to western ones, wipe out every sign of their ancient culture, heritage and ethos.

Let's take those one by one -- breaking idols: the Church says that one should not worship other gods, so if the individual takes his old idols and gives them away, that's correct. IF the individual gets a fervour and goes and breaks the idols belonging to other people, that is WRONG.

I agree that the converted shouldnt' insult Hindus as pagan demon worshippers or deny thier own past, or change their names to western ones, or wipe out every sign of their ancient culture, heritage and ethos --> and that's why the Church is now emphasising that Christianity in India must use Indian culture -- down to aartis in the Church.