Posted on 04/27/2006 6:26:15 PM PDT by spanalot
Was General Patton's death the result of a traffic accident or was he the victim of an assassination plot? (By Stalin)
(Excerpt) Read more at foxnews.com ...
"Patton wasn't "Denied" gas, as you put it."
I think someone is betraying their affinity for the Kremlin view of things.
http://www.pattonhq.com/unknown/chap06.html
There are plenty of crackpot theories espoused by Generals having a star on your shoulder does not make you infallible particularly when the statistics and facts show otherwise.
Of course, that comment has absolutely NOTHING to do with the quote from me. But that is typical of a spamalot post.
It has no bearing on anything. You seem to forget that Patton was a subordinate and PART of an overall plan and alliance. HIS wishes were irrelevant.
Quite likely most of those conjectures can be disputed as well.
"Wrong - we rehabilitated Japan very successfully and very completely in very short time. "
No, you're wrong. We did not "rehabilitate" Japan; it was already well on it's way to becoming a secular democracy -- until it got hijacked by the militarists. What Japan required was a first-hand lesson on the finer parts of Constitutional democracy, which it got under occupation and MacArthur. The Japanese had already spent the better part of 50 years actually building a democracy.
The presance of US Troops in Japan gradually began to wear away at some of the more rigid customs of Japanese culture, making it far less formal, less rigid. The experience of the war instilled the belief that authority very often MUST be challeneged (and not siimply accepted for the sake of peace) because lives very often depend on it. The Japanese also learned (from defeat) that comformity may be a cultural ideal, but that sometimes (as in business or war) you do need individuals that can "think outside the box", and that such people, who were once hammered down, should and oculd have a voice without civilization crashing down around everyone's ears..
"You really have no understanding of the process of political modernization. The problems we have in the Middleast have nothing to do with a belief in Mohammed - we could have the same problem if they believed in Festivus."
PLEASE! Dude, you're talking to someone who holds a MASTER'S DEGREE in Western Civilization (and is working on his PHD!)! I've forgotten more about "political modernization" then you ever knew!
You cannot have "political modernization" without secular rationalism; i.e. the ability to think and experiment, free of religious orthodoxy.
Has there ever been the equivalent of a Martin Luther in the Middle East? Has there ever been a Galileo? A Henry the Navigator? A Muslim Columbus, or Paracelsus, perhaps? Answer: No, there hasn't. What makes these people such a big deal? Because they all, at one time or another, blew away the rock-solid foundations of religious orthodoxy by
the application and demonstration of logical and scientific premises that ran counter to the prevailing religious orthodoxy of the day, at a time when the Church was THE biggest bad boy on the block.
Luther called out the Church, the most powerful organization of it's day, and held it responsible for it's corruption. Galileo destroyed the premise that the Earth was the center of the solar system, destroying a religious doctrine that had been accepted without question for centuries. Henry the Navigator and Christopher Columbus proved that the Church-sponsored-and-approved Aristotlean view of the world was incorrect, that the Indian Ocean actually did exist as something other than an enclosed sea of fire, and that there was no such thing as an Antipodean, superstitions that held sway in Christian circles forever.
Paracelsus put the superstitions (and useful) belief that disease was the result of sin to bed forever, and proved that it was the result of outside factors.
Do you see where this is heading? Every discovery mentioned above disproved an accepted, concrete religious domga of it's day and begat the system of rationalism that we enjoy to this very day, but take for granted.
There is no one in Islam, ever, who comes forward and says "Hey, your interpretation of what God said is wrong. And I can prove it!". To do so gets you killed. It used to be the same in the West, but once people began to see that the "heretics" (like the ones mentioned above) were often actually right, and the church wrong, it became safer to dissent and have a free exchange of ideas.
"They are anti-west because of Communist indoctrination in the 50's , 60's, and 70's"
They are anti-West because they are religiously pre-disposed to be so. Have you never heard of the Two Houses of Islam? The Dhimmi? Did Islam not spread by conquest, not just in Arab lands, but in non-Arab ones as well? It is the duty of every Muslim to bring the world under the cntrol of Sharia law (the Caliphate --- there have, to dat, been something like 30 caliphates. Like socialists, they keep trying despite the premise being proved faulty repeatedly), and to convert or destroy all non-believers. That includes Buddhists, Shintos, Scientologists, Catholics, Hindus, Jews, Animists, and Druids, in fact, everyone who isn't Muslim, and even then, they have their own secular issues. That's not only Anti-Western, it's pretty much anti-world.
It's been that way since 632 AD (see my tagline). The propaganda of the 50's-70's did little but to reinforce the cultural, religious and ethnic prejudices that already existed, and to inflame a latent frustration amongst people who would dearly love to have everything the West has to offer, but can't because of the cultural threat that often comes with it.
Span, I really have been nice about this and tried to educate you, but it's apparent you refuse to absorb what's being written. You want to believe what you want to believe, and that's fine, and at the same time, rather ironic. It is EXACTLY the same inability to accept the painfully obvious that brought the Church of Rome into conflict with Galileo (notice I didn't write that the other way around? See if you can figure out why).
Spannie: Here's how effective Patton's "tactical genius" was on the Brtttany Peninisula (ports of Brest and St. Naizaire) and at Metz. You will note that each of these attacks, after the failure of the initial armored assault, devolves into a frontal infantry assault against fortified positions.
So much for "genius".
You can skip all the explanations of the urban combat operations, if you wish, and concentrate on the specific examples of Patton's failures, which are inside the grey boxes.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-06/chap6.html
Sorry, faulty hyperlink. Try this:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/3-06/chap6.htm
I'll deny it because US Army documents and archival materials from the Patton museum show otherwise:
www.generalpatton.org
Of course, the real "Kremlin view of things" would be for someone like you to infer there were internal US Army plots against Patton and that the Brits and Americans were at loggerheads. THAT Comrade Spanalot IS the Kremlin Line. Interesting that you continue to denigrate our military heros.
A "good person" wow, you play one role on here and another elsewhere. Hmmm. Quite "arafatesque"
"9:37 PM
spanalot said...
Alex,
The Kremlin is guilty of the liquidation of 100 million in the last century and Putin continues to deny this.
I honestly believe Putin is a GOOD PERSON but what a horrible position to take when the Kremlin goes about resurrecting Stalin and such."
http://tbirdblog.blogspot.com/2005_06_01_tbirdblog_archive.html"
Re: the ports deal. What really rankles about that is not tha the potential "ownership" would come from the UAE, but that the entire thing was being kept a secret, in as much as that was possible.
We cannot remain a free society when the government keeps that kind of secret, knowingly, because it knows what the public fallout would be. As a straight business deal, I didn't see a problem with it (hard to keep a straight face about "security conerns" when Chinese concerns operate 14 ports on the West Coast); as a pblic relations problem, it's stank to high heaven.
I think more people objected to the secrecy, more than anything else, and of course, there are always thouse who lie in wait to exploit anythingpossible for political advantage.
But,to get back to the original point, is it possible to transplant the roots of Western Civ in the Middle East? I believe the answer is yes, but it won't be easy, nor will it happen quickly. But the first step, and also the hardest, is to change the mindset. In this case, it must be shown that the Western way,while confusing and often threatening to non-Western cultures, does in fact, provide for the greatest good for the greatest number of people.
No one ever really talks about this, but all those American, British, Australian and Canadian troops in Iraq and Afghanistan have another mission, unwritten and never spoken of: cultural ambassadors. And as they mix with the Afghans and Iraqis, as they show themselves to be fair, rational people, and as they form freindships and alliances n local communities, the walls of the Foretress of Ignorance will come tumbling down.
Once you do that, the rest (separation of church and state, capitalism, free scientific inquiry, legal protection of personal property, extension of political rights to minorities, etc) is a foregone conclusion.
"You can skip all the explanations of the urban combat operations, if you wish, and concentrate on the specific examples of Patton's failures, which are inside the grey boxes"
I did and it confirms my and everyone else's understanding - there was no "failure" in Brittany - Eisenhower and Bradley delayed the sweep to send Patton eastward after the bulk of the retreating German Army.
Can you explain your perception of a "failure" on Patton's part here?
Bradley and Eisenhower had to decide whether to adhere to the original plan and turn west with Pattons forces to secure the peninsula or to take advantage of the breakout at Saint Lo and turn east to exploit the disruption of the German defenses.
Ultimately they reached a compromise. General Middletons VIII Corps was tasked to secure the peninsula, and the bulk of Pattons Army, three Army corps, was turned northeast to exploit the operational collapse of the main German defenses. See Figure 6-1.
Where is the Patton Museum?
"I'll deny it because US Army documents and archival materials from the Patton museum show otherwise: www.generalpatton.org "
This is a Museum with no online archives. Lots of pretty pictures but devoid of facts. What can you expect when a word search of Bastogne comes up blank.
I see no denial of the facts an quots I posted.
Yet another link that is devoid of info. And I do believe Putin is a good perrson , but absolute power corrupts absolutely and he is drunk with it - and Russia's worst enemy.
"And I do believe Putin is a good perrson "
So you'll be apologizing to the people you called traitors for expressing similiar sentiments?
What are your thoughts on Yalta (sp)?
Try visiting NARA.
Yes, I can explain it.
Middleton is merely the Corps commander. Patton is the Army Commander. Any failure, therefore, IS Pattons. The US Army lives and dies by this principle.
You did read the part where the initial attack of 6th Armored stalled, due to delay, just when it was possible to take Brest with little opposition? And you did read the part that said the resulting 10,000 US casualties caused the Allies to bypass similar attacks on Lorient and St. Nazaire, at a time when the American army was being supplied by a single, barely-operational port (Cherbourg)?
You do remember the supply problems the Allies faced in the race across France (particularly Patton), which you attribute to "Patton having his supplies taken away"? As if there was a conspiracy to starve Patton of supplies.
You do recall reading that the attack on Metz (the third one, that is, the previous arored attacks failed) kisnotable for it's lackof armor, it's lack of the mobility and sleight-of-hand of modern combat and is reminiscent of a WWI seige, with reulting heavy casualties?
Patton, regarding Metz, said that "fixed fortifications were a testament to the stupidity of man", because, in his mind, he planned to bypass it. However, he was ordered to take it, and when he did, it was with a singular lack of originality. In the end, massed infantry charged those "stupid fixed fortifications' suffered horrendous casualties. But that's okay; we "won" the battle.
Bottom line: Had Patton either kicked Middleton's behind (i the attack on Brest) or insisted (possibly at cost of his job) that Metz should be bypassed, or better yet, taken personal command of the operations we can say (although not with certainty) that the possession of four ports, rather than one, woulds have eased the Allied supply situation and allowed a much faster advance, which would have shortened the war AND SAVED LIVES. We can say, although ot with certainty, that had Patton done what he knew to be right at Metz, he would have SAVED LIVES.
As for Patton chasing the Germans across France, and pointing to it as some sort of "tactical genius"; There was no organized German resistence after Falaise until the allied armies reached Metz and Verdun, and finally the Rhine. The majority of the credit should not go to Patton, but to General "Opie" Weyland (Command of XIX Tactical Air Force), and Generals Abrahms and Wood. Patton, however, gets the credit because he's overall commander, and avoids the blame because we can always say "Ike and Brad gave him two incompatible missions. That is a luxury a public figure as revered as Patton has). Patton should have been the FIRST to point out that the capture of the ports AND chasing the Germans were incompatable, and should have said so. That he didn't speaks more to his eagerness to get Back into command, even if it meant doing something that stupid, like undertake competing missions simultaneously.
No commander should ever be asked, let alone do, such a thing. Just ask Admiral Nagumo at Midway how that worked out for him.
Then again, give me complete air supremacy, an enemy in headlong retreat and incapable of organized resistance, short of tanks, and I'll advance 50 miles a day too. Yes, Patton did travel further and faster than anyone, and engaged more divisions, but what shapre were those divisions in when they faced 3rd Army? How much ground had the ceded? What was left after Falaise?
Patton rightfully gets marks for his character, his execution of the overall strategy (hold 'em by the nose and kick 'em in the ass -- the prefered strategy of field commanders since Alexander the Great, how original!), the near-campaign-ending semi-victory at Falaise, and finally for his anticipation of the German attack in the Ardennes (the Bulge) and being prepared for it.
After that, the record is mixed. His victories in North Africa showed much more drive, dash and original thinking, and the Patton legend is most certainly tarnished by the Sicilian campaign (not just he soldier slapping, either). By August of 1944 this is no longer the G.S. Patton that drove the Germans out of Tunisia; this (the 1944-45) G.S. Patton is muzzled by higher command, he is wary of doing anything to rock the boat, and he is more creation of the press than he is tactical genius.
Yalta is generally considered a tragedy for the West, and a betrayal of Eastern Europe, but more than anything, it is was a reflection of the overall strategic realities of the time.
The biggest victim, in my opinion, was Winston Churchill.
Churchill, for all his banter, was a realistic gentleman. He knew that the total defeat of Germany more or less guarenteed Russian control of Eastern Europe. The situation Churchill finds himself in is quite ironic; he wants the dfeat of Germany, but not a defeat that leaves Germany unable to stand against (or help stand against) Stalin. His overriding concerns are:
a) Erasing the stain of the Munich Pact, in which the English government basically gave up (arrogantly, no less!)Czechoslovakia in order to buy a few months of relative peace, and to correct the grave mistake of guarenteeing Polish security without being able to do anything to back it up. English credibility was nearly destroyed by the betrayal of the Czechs and the puny response made to the invasion of Poland. The only way to do this is to ensure that English and American forces are in a position to make certain that Czechoslovakia (and Poland), are defended against the new (and worse) threat of Stalin.
b) Chruchill realizes that France is not an ally that can be counted upon to help keep Western Europe safe from the Red Army. There will be no post-War united Anglo-French front to stand against Stalin. DeGaulle was a mostly ineffective ally who's overriding concern was his own aggrandizement and notions of French nationalism that bore no resemlance to the reality of the war. The only way to provide some security for Post-war western Europe is to have sufficient forces in EASTERN Europe to act as a buffer.
These are the goals Churchill sought, not only at Yalta, but on his repeated insistance for inavsions of the "soft underbelly" of Europe as envisioned in an invasionof the Balkans which was continually spoken of, but never undertaken. The Americans wanted a Cross-Channel omvasionof France as "the big show", and since they were contributing the troops and equipment, they got their way.
Stalin's goals were the exact oposite of Chruchill's; he seeks a buffer between Russia and Western Europe. Since there is not going to be an allied presance in Eastern Europe, ever, he is free to build that buffer with whatever his armies can occupy.
It's simple arithmetic, really.
As for Truman, he is in over his head. He may have been Roosevelt's VP, but he was kept conspicuously in the dark over overall Allied strategy by FDR; he's learning on the job, basically. He's presented wih a scenario where his population wants the war over quickly, his armies are in no shape or position to enact his ally's (Churchill's), strategy and he's not about to start playijng the old European game of "Spheres of Influence"; he still has to defeat Japan and bring the boys back home.
All Truman cares about is getting out, not being drawn in deeper.
"Middleton is merely the Corps commander. Patton is the Army Commander. Any failure, therefore, IS Pattons. "
That's absurd - blame it on Cain.
"You do remember the supply problems the Allies faced in the race across France (particularly Patton), which you attribute to "Patton having his supplies taken away"? As if there was a conspiracy to starve Patton of supplies. "
Equally absurd - Montgomery and Bradley were favored by Eisenhower and it is they who sustained the worst casualties despite getting far more support.
Proof positive is the crossing of the Rhine (from my earlier post)
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