Posted on 04/07/2006 10:02:17 AM PDT by NYer
New Delhi (AsiaNews) – In a letter to Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, John Dayal, president of the All India Catholic Union, warns in not so many words that Hindu nationalists are no longer limiting themselves to random attacks against Christians but have prepared a well-thought-out plan that combines terror and intimidation against minorities and that they are currently implementing across the country.
For Mr Dayal, state political and administrative leaders as well as the justice and law enforcement systems are prejudiced against minorities, instilling fear and insecurity amongst ethnic and religious minorities who are forced to live in terrible conditions.
He writes: “You [i.e. Prime Minister] are of course aware of the single-minded pursuit of a communal agenda by the Government of the State of Rajasthan, both in the case of the Emmanuel Mission as also in bringing the so-called Freedom of Religion Bill [sic].”
To illustrate his point, Mr Dayal brought to the prime minister’s attention two grave episodes. First, the “naked display of armed might by the RSS [Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh, a Hindu paramilitary group] in Jhansi in Uttar Pradesh” during state elections in defiance of “civil authorities and [. . .] the Arms Act”, an act that did not elicit any response by the same authorities despite the fact that Uttar Pradesh is not even governed by India’s largest party, the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) who are the RSS’s political masters. What would happen, he asks, if the BJP actually ran the state?
Although different in nature, the second episode is even more disquieting and violent. It concerns the confiscation by the state of Gujarat of a leprosarium in Ahmadabad and the sacking of six Catholic nuns in charge of the institution and their eviction from the Ave Maria Convent which was their home for the past 60 years.
The nuns’ link to the place dates back to 1949 shortly after independence when Bombay authorities invited a Jesuit clergyman, Father Villalonga, to help stop leprosy in the city of Ahmadabad. With the help of Franciscan sisters from Kumbakonam, led by Sister Naemi, he set out building the facility. The authorities and the local bishop signed a five-year, renewable agreement, setting up a government-funded leprosy hospital.
After 60 years, the nuns’ work has become legendary and in all of this time the agreement was always renewed without problems . . . until last month that is.
Dayal explains that whilst the sisters had no reason to suspect anything untoward when the local Health Commission requested a review of the permit, they knew something was really wrong when the government sent them a letter informing them that a lay doctor would take over the management of the facility giving them two days to vacate the convent. In a letter formally announcing that the permit was not being renewed, the Health Commission said that the decision had come from a higher authority.
Even though the “victims are not the nuns, but the hapless patients,” writes Dayal, “it is clear why they were sacked, dispossessed of their home and thrown out of the hospital. For their religion! [. . .] A leprosarium is hardly the place for evangelization.”
In concluding his appeal, Dayal writes: “Dear Prime Minister, the time has come for a serious look at this pattern of hate against Christians. This is not the average communal riot or victimization which sporadically bursts out, and then dies out. This is a sustained terror campaign against our community, even if each incident is separated from the next in space and time. May I request [. . .] that the Union Government [. . .] consider comprehensive political and administrative measures that send out the correct signals to the guilty, and extend assurances to the victims.”
That's interesting, but I don't see what it has to do with restricting the freedom of conscience for hundreds of millions of people. Which is the point of this entire discussion.
The Indian state probably can do this, but don't expect a pat on the back. It's low and grubby, and probably has it roots in the seedier aspects of Indian culture.
Read post #163.
Your query has already been answered.
I think the basic point here is the political wieght of conversions in the Indian context. You're quite right that these two papers might be biased, and unworthy of respect. The only problem is that other news sources seem to agree with them.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/3166126.stm
http://www.cbc.ca/tapestry/comingsoon.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1639245.stm
http://www.indianexpress.com/res/web/pIe/ie20011101/nat12.html (Check the ending out! A mass Buddhists conversion ceremony is a Christian conspiracy! We're apparently VERY crafty.)
You happen to have a bunch of people around who spend a lot of time handling crap, and who have a interest in bailing out of the Hindu faith(s), and bailing into Christianity, Islam, and Buddhists. That seems to be the consensus. Your also correct that under stress, some people abandon their values in a shameful way, and that sometimes thats just the way it is.
That said, this seems to boils down to "Geez, there are a lot of shit-lifters out there, and if they become muslims we're in the soup". Not the most noble one ever, but given the realities of our world, one that makes sense. Its going to have to be ok.
Exactly what that has to do with Christians, however, is quite another question. If you can provide proof that Christianity will destroy your way of life, than you should provide it! You freely admit that Christians are 1-2% of the population, no threat in demographic terms to anyone. Give us a rationale for the threat we pose, and why 80% of the Indian population needs to be protected from us! For that matter, explain exactly what difference does it make if all the Dalits rush off and become Buddists? The Tibetans are Buddhists and they can even respond violently to the complete destruction of their culture!
If you're concerned that conversions will lead to sectarian violence like during partition, I might accept that. If its really based on "We don't want to lose our shit-lifters" or "we won't tolerate other beliefs, even when they aren't a threat" though you've got some pretty serious issues to cope with. When I consider the rise of the RSS and the JHP (the deep thinkers who uncovered the Buddist/Christian conspricy earlier!)I suspect that the sentiments behind this aren't as simple, or as appealing as you let on.
Whats interesting is not a single hindu , not even a single low caste hindu (I am one) who is even slightly well to do or has atleast basic high school education has ever converted to christianity in the recent past. Only the poorest and illiterate people seem to convert to x'tianity. Why? If hinduism was so backward and dehumanising , the educated among us would be the first to convert to a supposedly enlightened religion of christ...right ? But no , the educated always stick to hinduism. Its only the illiterate or the poor in far off villages and tribal areas who get lured by the missionary to convert and accept jesus as their saviour for as little as 1000 rupees or 200$ each. And when the hindu missionaries visit the same place and offer them the same amount , they convert back to hinduism......I hope you have the little sense to understand what I am saying. Poor care about food , not about religion. They may wear a cross so that they can get the extra cash from the missionary , but will continue to worship the same pagan god and hold the same rituals when the missionary is not looking.
Ask yourself , why do Indian-Americans (around 2-3 million) , 90% of who are devout hindus , continue to be hindu ? These people are among the wealthiest groups in US with the best education.You know - the silicon valley geeks , the doctors , the entreprenuers , the professors , ivy league university students - you will find them every where. And yet they are more devoted to hinduism than even the folks back home in India. Surely the Indian state has no hold on them.....how do you explain such intelligent people sticking to supposedly 'backward' and 'dehumanising' pagan religion of rat worshipping and idol worshipper and risk going to 'hell', rather than convert to your 'englighted' faith of x'tianity and jesus christ , the only faith that guarantees gateway to heaven ???
If you're talking about forced conversions.......when is the last time you saw Christians force anyone to convert? or force someone to REMAIN a Christian?
Your barbs aganst Christianity are misplaced, misguided, and woefully misinformed. Islam, on the other hand, can EASILY be classified as a "death cult" and there are ample examples around the globe in the last ten years alone to support such a contention. Therefore, I could fault NO people or government who outright banned Islam completely. They have shown themselves (Muslims) to be little more than a bloodthirsty gang and need to be swept back across the globe.
However, you'll never, ever see Christians killing those who either convert or refuse to. You won't see beheadings, bombings, "honor killings", or other such guesome garbage. Christianity is a peaceful faith, and is NOW (despite all your references earlier to Africa)..and only now.....becoming the fastest growing religion across Africa and Asia. It is a positive influence and not one to be feared, hated, squashed, or despised.
Also, I have been a supporter of India for many years. It has the potential to be a true powerhouse, but there are serious cultural/religious issues that its people must work out to truly thrive.....not just for a relative few, but nationwide. All I can tell you is that to separate the importance of Christianity and faith in God from America's unbelievable success is disingenuous. It's well documented fact that this was founded as a Christian country, yet tolerant of all religions.
It set the basis for a nation that values the individual; respects the individual, respects LIFE, and guarantees "inalienable rights". Those rights are bestowed by God, not man.
No.
Of course it is. There is nothing in persuasion that violates anyone's rights. You always still have the right to say no. How are you harmed by the attempts of these missionaries or anyone else to persuade you that thier religion is the right one?
I don't think there is only one way to look at it, and I know missionaries can be annoying. I'm not a big fan of proselytizing. But missionaries also do some very good things. They often bring education, healthcare, and other things to communities desperately in need of them. I can see why Brahmins are offended by this, but I don't see how anyone can oppose allowing the missionaries -- or anyone else -- to do their work, as long as they stick to persuasion, not coercion.
That you would not allow them to try to persuade people shows that you do not believe in basic democratic/republican values. It shows a totalitarian streak.
Perhaps, but that doesn't justify acting in the most violent, repressive way towards minorities, as the upper-caste Brahminocracy is doing.
Support it? No, I think it's reprehensible, and I will continue to point it out. But as long as they stick to speaking, rather than the violence for which they have been notorious, the cure for bad speech is more speech. All of us have a duty to point out that their statements are hateful. But until they incite violence, their speech is (or should be) protected.
Acually the hindus who actually fight for the cause of hindusim are the lower caste hindus or backward caste hindus like me. Brahmins are too timid and self-centered to take up cudgels for the sake of hinduism. So please give those like me , a backward caste hindu bania , credit where it is due. Its my low caste hindu ancestors who have safeguarded hinduism through the centuries of islamic rule and british rule. Brahmins only constitute 2-3% of hindu population and most of them are rich , convent educated. People like from more humble backround - we are the ones who fight for hinduism.
And yes , I know who you are Tim Phares.Still working for the lost and forgotten cause of Khalistan , eh ? The Khalistan guys can still afford to pay your bills ? Gosh , you must be real cheap. L-O-S-E-R.
You don't even understand how the Brahmins are exploiting you, do you? They're the power structure. In no country does the power structure do the fighting. Tehy send the poor and the lower classes. They're using lower castes but at the same time, they're allowing crimes against the lower castes and ethnic/religious minorities to go on with impunity. Take the Dalits.
Bharthari Prasad, then additional sessions judge, was transferred to another court and replaced by A K Srivastava in June 1998. Newspaper reports then said Srivastava had got the entire chamber and its furniture washed with ‘Ganga jal’ because it was previously occupied by a judicial officer belonging to a Scheduled Caste.
A Dalit walking in the presence of a Brahmin could be beaten or killed with impunity. A few years ago, a Dalit constable entered a temple for a little shelter on a rainy day. The Brahmins who were worshipping there stoned him to death.
A more recent example of physical violence against Dalits happened on August 31, 2005, when upper-caste villagers in Gohana burned more than 60 Dalit houses. The attack drove more than 2,000 Dalit families out of Gohana.
When a child can attend school, he/she will not gain any skills beyond what the state has determined necessary for the continuance of their family’s profession and will learn these skills in their regionalized language.
Dalit children sit in the back of the classroom and are denied the opportunity to speak or ask questions. Dalits do not eat with upper-caste children and often cannot drink from the same school wells as the upper-caste. A Dalit girl who did drink water from the community water was hit by her teacher across the eyes with a ruler and blinded.
The one attempt to remedy the economic discrimination faced by Dalits was in the inclusion of a “reservation” system in the Indian Constitution. Reservation mandates a percentage of government jobs and public university seats for Dalits. In order to receive this reservation, however, one must self-declare as a Hindu, Sikh, or Buddhist member of a Scheduled Caste or Scheduled Tribe. This process ensures that Dalits must remain within the same social and religious mindset and context that created the need for reservation: Dalits must stay in Hinduism despite the lack of opportunity for spiritual and social equality. (This is hte real reason for anti-conversion laws, to keep Dalits within Hinduism so that the Brahmins can continue to exploit them.)
The State Department’s Office to Monitor and Combat Trafficking in Persons has listed India on the Tier 2 Watch List for two consecutive years and reports that “the central government continues to show inadequate and uneven efforts to protect victims of trafficking.” Most of those who are trafficked from India and intra-state are Dalits and OBCs. The State Department has also listed Indi as a violator of religious freedoms and in its 1994 report, it noted that the government had paid over 41,000 cash bounties to police officers for killing Sikhs. At lest one of tehse went to a police officer who killed a three-year-old boy.
Revolving around the problem of caste within Hinduism is the complex and increasingly violent relationship between the Hindu caste system and other religions. Revolving around the problem of caste within Hinduism is the complex and increasingly violent relationship between the Hindu caste system and other religions. Buddhism, Islam, and Christianity have been in India for centuries.
Recently, in response to the history of caste and its problems, hundreds of thousands of Indians, Dalits particularly, have turned away from Hinduism to join other religions in response to a new wave of caste-free evangelism.
Its my low caste hindu ancestors who have safeguarded hinduism through the centuries of islamic rule and british rule.
"Safeguarded" Hinduism from what?
Hey Tim Phares , obviously the Khalistan guys or the Pakis , who you work for forgot to update you on the latest in India. this is the new India. We 'backward caste hindus' . we are the power structure. We the the top guys in every political party here. Nobody can get elected without our approval. These days we are getting prosperous as well. We consitute over 80% of the hindu population.We are the real hindus.All the money that goes to hindu temples does not come from brahmins , it comes from our pockets. We have the biggest stake in India.We are the fighters , we are the workers and lately we are the owners. We own India. Think of the most fanatic and popular hindu leaders today. They are invariably low caste hindus like me. Heard of Narendra Modi , the firebrand hindu leader ? He and I hail from the same state and same caste.
By the way , I have been reading some of the articles you have written. Damn - the Khalistan lobby must be real broke to hire a pathetic nitwit like you. I know your employers live in a bubble , please convery my sat stri akal to them and inform them that India has a Sikh prime minister these days......
Israel has anti-conversion laws, older than India's bill(a proposal, not yet law) to prevent conversions by coercion/monetary encitements, threats, etc.
I guess you have no problems with those laws, eh?
And as for those dalits whom you claim are desperate to convert/bail out, let me tell you this. Often times, when large groups of these people are "converted", almost the next day, similar means of encitement taken by Hindu counter-groups are just as easily able to "re-convert" the very same group of people. Why?
Besides, throughout India's history, although the disadvantaged "castes" were the ones most eager to "opt out" of Hinduism, some of the earliest converts were indeed the privileged "castes"- the brahmins of Kerala and Mangalore who were one of the first groups of people to embrace Christianity in India. The Rajputs embraced Islam when they got into alliances with the rival Mughal kingdoms. And the Pandits and Bhats of Kashmir, who too, similarly embrraced Islam.
And as for the "persecution" bogey, here's fresh news:
In case you haven't noticed, the incidents I have cited are mostly quite recent. I guess that's the "new India" you're talking about.
1. If only the poorest, most desperate people are becoming Christians, why exactly do you care? If they're just tricking the stupid, stupid missionaries for food and money, so much the better for you. Let us waste our time and money on the desperate. That's what we do. It's not our fault you happen to have a lot of desperate people on hand.
2. Go find a point where I made any disparaging comment about the doctrines, or even the adherents of Hinduism. I'll be waiting a while, because I've made no such comment.
3. The fact that educated people tend to stick with their orginal faiths means exactly nothing in this discussion. Also, I suspect religious mobility is a lot more serious a problem than you let on. Otherwise, why would we be discussing this?
And whoedver is responsible needs to be condemned and prosecuted, tehn locked up for a longtime. However, in the United States, there is a very good chance that that will happen. In India, you can do things like that with the tacit support of the government via impunity.
I guess you haven't heard of 'reconversions' happening in India. The bill in question seeks to ban this also.
And the trouble didn't exactly begin with the conversions. Conversions have happened in the past too. But not in the way it is being done today- by making the converts see Hindus in an eye of contempt first, often by distributing pamphlets and literature despising Hinduism. That's the fount of the new friction. As long as it is encouraged, you will only see larger numbers of counter-propagandists from the Hindu crowd acting. Both sides feeding off each other.
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