[summer]

This is an interesting article. I only posted an excerpt but it's worth your time to read the entire article if you are interested in this issue.

[stacytec]

Seems that this would just cause "teaching for the test". I'm in favor of incentive plans but perhaps there are better ways to measure a teacher's performance than the results of a standardized test.

[summer]

I feel like FL wants, so much, for all students to succeed, and that is the motivation of FL officials behind this plan. And, when they make their case about merit pay, my instict is to support merit pay because what's wrong with rewarding the best teachers?

But, FL is acting on the premise, supported by research, that the teacher is the most important and influential party in a student's life. However, those who oppose comp pay, do not buy that line of research as much as FL does.

Case in point, as here is a little inside joke among teachers at an inner city school: These teachers (at an "F" school) say they know how to bring their school's grade up to an "A" overnight -- just give them the students from an "A" school.

You might laugh at this, but here is their point: If you switched students at an "F" and "A" school, but left the same teaching faculty in place, would the "A" students suddenly become "F" students? No. Nor would the "F" students suddenly become "A" students.

That is the reason many teachers oppose merit pay -- because the teachers in the affluent, wealthy, all white schools will get merit pay year after year, even if they do absolutely nothing because those kids' parents are also teaching those kids. Meanwhile, many teachers work their butts off in inner city schools, and while some improvement does happen, it doesn't come without a lot more work than teachers in better in schools will ever do.

BTW, experienced teachers do not flock to the low performing schools. Teachers with lots of experience stay in the better schools and do not move. It is the new teachers who are always forced into the toughest teaching situations. And, it is those teachers who will be last on the published list of good teachers. Not a good way to encourage teachers (as part of this E Comp plan wants to publish names of teachers). If you have 20 years of experience and can't get your students to improve, OK, maybe your name should be on a list. But you're starting out, the last thing you want is to be told you're a failure before you even start.

[Citizen Tom Paine]

The problem with merit pay for teachers and for government workers are the "measures" that are established to measure the worker's performance. In the private sector, in the case of a salesperson, measures can be determined, e.g., how much did that person sell in a quarter? in a year? In some instances the time frame may be too short.

What measure is used for a teacher? I have maintained that teachers should be evaluated by students after they have graduated. All of you can look back, and recall your best teacher and the worst ones. I don't think in most instances it is possible to say an the end of a year. Maybe after 5 years.

Now think for a minute about how one would write performance measures up for a spare tire. In one year, it may have done nothing. However, when the day comes that you need one, you are glad that you have one in your trunk. A spare tire is a good example for positions in the police, fire and other deparcments. IMHO

[SoftballMominVA]

Interesting article--thanks for posting it.

As another poster has already said, the problem here is that high-performing students are often high-performing because of the enrichment given at home. Parents in middle to upper SES catagories expect so much from their kids that do not leave schooling only for the teachers. These are parents taking their kids to historical sites, arranging extra tutoring when needed, supervising homework and just having an atmosphere at home positive to learning. For this system to work, there has to be something in place that recognizes that a years worth of growth looks different in each kid.

In addition, I was shocked to learn that the FCATs mean little to the kids except in grades 3 and 10. That is total BS. If the test means that much to the school and teacher, it needs to mean quite a bit to the student. The FCAT's need to become somewhat of an exit exam from grade to grade. That will stop the random bubbling in right there in all but your most hard-core test haters.

Overall, I'm not opposed to the idea of merit pay, nor am I opposed to getting rid of teachers whose students consistently under perform. But there needs to be a balance between the poor and wealthy schools so that the low performing schools don't have a revolving door in the front admitting and releasing brand new teachers.

[cbkaty]

This would be a non-issue if parents would simply put their children in private school and abandon the failed public system..... OK..now flame away!

[Nextrush]

I make under 40-thousand a year here in PA to pay people who teach at an average salary of around 50-thosuand. I don't buy this "comparatively low pay." That's National Education Association propaganda. Parents would make a big difference in their children's education if they cared more. If they cared to the point of personal sacrifice, they would teach at home and we could save a lot on teacher salaries then. Oops, I let some truth slip out. Its easy to blame administrators, but the salaries and benefits of all the people who work in schools make up over 60 percent of budgets around here. Some people who work in schools only pay $24 a month for medical and dental benefits around here. That has to change, too. It costs a lot more in the real world of taxpayers out there.

[q_an_a]

the flaw in the Pay portion of this story is that a teacher with 20 years of work history could be earning 50K+ work nine months plus all the "snow" days that are time off thus, if they have a summer job at DisneyWorld or the GAP and their salary they could earn 65K+ a year, retire at 55 and start career #2 with a huge nest egg. (my writing needs some taching help this morning)

[Small-L]

What we need is incentive pay for parents (and students). I know of a school that pays students $20 for 3 or fewer absences in a semester, and parents who pay their kids $50 for an A, $20 for a B and $5 for a C. You think their kids don't fight for an A? It also teaches them the rewards that come from hard work and discipline.

I'm a strong advocate of performance pay for teachers when done at the school level. Our school offers a very nice bonus to the "Teacher of the Year," and a lesser bonus to the runners up. The TOTY is voted on by the teachers themselves in a 2-level voting scheme. Yes, there's always going to be some favoritism, but that's true in industry too. At least in my memory, the TOTY bonus has never gone to someone other than a truly outstanding teacher.

While I'm on the subject, why is it that we pay large bonuses to sports coaches (admittedly who spend extra hours coaching), but nothing to outstanding teachers who spend extraordinary hours doing paperwork, grading papers, and preparing for classes? Do we value outstanding football teams and baseball players more than outstanding students? Which are going to contribute more to our society in the long run?

[conservativecorner]

Ya, God forbid you get raises based on performance.

[Graybeard58]

First, not all public school teachers are members of the N.E.A. My daughter teaches high school classes and is not a member nor are all teachers liberals. I know you haven't stated that at all but it seems to be "common knowledge" to some.

As you have already pointed out, rating a teacher's teaching ability based on how well the students do on a test does not take into consideration the ability of the students to learn to begin with. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear, (That's my observation, not my daughter's).

My daughter also informs me that students who do well are usually the students who have parents who are involved in their education, parents who bother to show up at parent/teacher conferences,parents who impose discipline and order in their child's lives, parents who care.

In one of her classes of 30 students last year, four of the girls were pregnant, one of them with her second child. Assuming that half the class were girls, that's 4 of 15 and we may safely guess that at least as many of the boys in that class were involved with getting somebody pregnant.

In addition it's difficult to teach high school level classes to teen agers, many of whom have difficulty reading simple instructions. If a kid can't read by the time he is in high school there are only two choices, either flunk him or pass him on through the system.

There are incompetent teachers to be sure, I am positive that my daughter is not one of them, she is a frustrated teacher.

Back in the 70s I was watching news coverage of a teachers strike in Chicago. One of the reporters asked a picket sign holding teacher what her position was at the school. Her reply was, "I teaches English" Teachers who are incompetent should be fired but not on the basis of some test given to students.

[RoadTest]

"Some Teachers Say Merit Pay Plan Is a Bitter Apple [FL E-Comp Plan]

Sure. An apple tastes sour after eating cake and ice cream.

[M. Dodge Thomas]

Seems to me it would make the most sense to pay a very substantial bonus for improvement in test scores, which would direct teaching talent were public education most needs it, at under-performing students.

As it stands the incentives are perverse, in most places the teachers in affluent districts working under the best conditions with the easiest to teach students are the most highly paid.

If teachers and adminsitratorshad to produce improvement in test scores to increase their income, and the greater the improvement the greater the increase, market forces should re-direct teaching talent to the places were the greatest improvement is possible, the schools and students with the lowest current relative performance.

Of course, it might be that no matter how motivated and skillful the teachers and administrators their efforts would be overwhelmed by other factors,

But if so, we would at least have a convincing demonstration of the limits of schools in effecting such improvements, and to move on with greater confidence to other sorts of efforts.

[TChris]

The typical education system pay scheme rewards experience and/or education level with higher pay. How exasperating for the state to think about rewarding teachers for better teaching!

[Mr. Jeeves]

"There is a ready solution for anyone on the public payroll who feels that he is not paid enough: He can resign and work for a living. This applies with equal force to Congressmen, Welfare 'clients', school teachers, generals, garbage collectors, and judges." -- Robert A. Heinlein

[Standard]

A major factor in academic performance (not politically correct or warm and fuzzy) is genetics. Some kids were born with straight As (in real academic subjects), they can do no work and still get them, it's in every cell in their body. Some just can't, no matter what.

It's not a 100% correlation; but when you're looking at averages in groups living in an area, higher economic performance in the US tends to correlate with higher intelligence which leads to cushier jobs. In a "good" school and a "bad" school you can find a few kids that disprove a notion that the school itself inhibits getting As or Fs.

Some teachers are likely more effective than others; but this is just really hard to measure. A private school has a chance to evaluate this as the private school makes decisions at the school level on pure economics if parents are discriminating customers of education.

A public school will never share these motives. And a teachers' union exists to provide safe cushy work for the lowest academic performers to set foot on a college campus - a group that is chock full of socialists to boot. There may be exceptions to this; but we're talking about some single-digit percentage (maybe low as 1%).

Imposing performance standards on public schools, though, is just punishment that will stratify payscales a bit against teaching in poor neighborhoods (low performance students). Whether the teacher union types "deserve" said punishment is a strategic/political action more than one based on education quality, unless said education quality is to be improved through punishment of teacher-union-dues-payers.

[ridesthemiles]

She is crying about "her salary".
For crying out loud, I have been paying MY SALARY for 49+ years in the form of property taxes to "educate" all these little darlings with these incompetant teachers.
When do I get to complain about her stealing my salary?

I have never understood how "tenure" can be applied to people who are totally incompetant.

[mysterio]

If teachers' salaries become tied to test scores, no teachers will want to teach the slow kids who cannot test well.

But I'm sure the logic of this obvious fact will be lost in a sea of "those gosh darn unions, overpaid, lazy teachers, unions, lazy, lazy" blah blah blah. All posted by hard workers surfing the internet on company time.

[Born Conservative]

If you have asked to be added to this list, and haven’t been receiving the pings, please let me know. I’ve had a problem with my file synchronization between my home and work computer, and apparently have lost some names on the list. I think I have the problem fixed, and will gladly re-add your name.

[I_like_good_things_too]

It seems like it would be more reasonable for them to base bonuses on improvements in scores. Also, I get a tad tired of seeing the repetition of how the testing's "not fair". Just like all evaluations in life, starting with school and continuing with work in the free sector, it's rarely a fair, apples to apples world.

[hgro]

The screaming and hair pulling by incompetent teachers and the NEA will raise in volume as a sensible solution to the public school failures expose more and more failures.

All because some teachers would make better hamburger tossers at McDonalds.

Pay teachers for demonstrated ability not tenure.