Posted on 03/13/2006 10:27:46 AM PST by DBeers
I tried growing my hair out, until Dad said that he'd get me a dress and a pair of earrings to wear with it.
Needless to say, I got a haircut. :-) But, I accomplished what I was trying to do, namely p*ss him off by being a rebellious teenager. LOL!
I have two dogs who are brothers, they've been together since birth. So, they've had the same environment. One is the "alpha" dog, the other not. They're as different as night and day.
That doesn't mean the differences are genetic...we can grow up in the same household but have a totally different experience.
I think that logically, it can't be genetic, and those that promote it as a 'genetic disorder' are seeking an easy excuse for the behavior. The only way I can think of for it to be purely genetic, is if it's an abnormality like 'FragileX syndrome' or something, in which case it would amount to 1 case in thousands, rather than 2-3% (or 10%, as the gay lobby falsely claims.....)
Unfortunately, the entire genetic theory has become so politicized, that the true answer will never come out.
IMHO, I think that it's a combination of learned behavior and a chemical imbalance.
If I recall correctly, this is at least the second time I have read you referencing this study. I did a fairly extensive Google search and found nothing (maybe my keywords or search terms were not good?) Anyway, can you provide something more specific on this study so that I may find and persuse it?
Oh brother. I wasn't a "girly girl" either. I had stick horses, a set of sixgun capguns, a cowboy hat and played commando and climbed trees. I think it had more to do with the cowboy shows and war movies, than "gender displacement".
My preferred mode of dress is still bluejeans and T-shirts. It took my husband 10 years after our wedding to get me back into a dress! I still hate wearing them!
Forgot to add this, it will be interesting to see if this "girly" twin actually grows up to be a gay man. If "mom" is indulging him in his girly stuff then fine but to attach real significance to this at this age, in my opinion, is a real stretch.
Precisely! Any studies that claim objective findings as to causality of a subjective condition are inherently flawed in premise. Especially when the subjective condition is not even realized yet ( e.g. feeling drawn toward or choosing to engage in homosexual activity) and is at best predicted by anectdotal guesswork e.g. in the case of "homosexual" children...
The child plays with dolls -voila, he must be homosexual!
/end sarcasm
It was actually an interesting study--IIRC it sparked a conflict between the author and another scientist which led to them bickering back and forth over several issues of the journal. The study author theorized the trend is due to anti-male antibodies produced by the mother with repetive pregnancies with a boy (the theory mentioned in the article). The other scientist said that it was probably an environmental effect, perhaps due to a higher likelihood of physical or sexual abuse by an older brother as there were more of them.
It couldn't be genetic in this case, of course, since there's no mechanism to transmit certain genes to a son only when one has produced multiple sons already.
I read about this study over 30 years ago - I only remember that it was done in the 60s in Britain. I did find a couple of other studies that make reference to the same conclusions.
Lindy Heinecken Centre for Military Sudies, Military Academy, University of Stellenbosch - Published in African Security Review Vol 8 No 5, 1999: "Other studies have discovered that mothers, who suffered severe stress during pregnancy, had a higher incidence of gay sons. Increased adrenaline levels caused by stress lower the testosterone level in the male foetus. This is believed to influence sexual orientation. Similarly, the use of synthetic oestrogen used to reduce the risk of miscarriage has been associated with an increased incidence of lesbian daughters."
This study of rats was done in 1972:
"Abstract: Male rats were exposed to prenatal (i.e. before they were born) or postnatal (after they were born) stress, or both. The prenatally stressed males showed low levels of male copulatory behavior and high rates of female lordotic responding. Postnatal stress had no effect. The modifications are attributed to stress-mediated alterations in the ratio of adrenal to gonadal androgens during critical stages of sexual differentiation. Specifically, it appears that stress causes an increase in the weak adrenal androgen, androstendione, from the maternal fetal adrenal cortices, or both, and a concurrent decrease in the potent gonadal androgen, testosterone."
Parental Stress Feminizes and Demasculizes the Behavior of Males, Science, January 7, 1972 (83-84).
If I had the time (which I don't) to do the research, I'm sure I could find the study I read about years ago.
"Somehow, the mother's body is remembering how many boys she's carried before," says Breedlove. "The favorite hypothesis is that the mother may be making antibodies when she sees a boy the first time, and then affect subsequent boys when she carries them in utero."
Actually, there are a number of differences in second and third and so forth children. The entire family is different, as is the average age of the family environment, the wealth of the parents, and the age and energy of parents. Smallest children tend to be babied a lot too. All of things appear to create differences between children by birth order - that has nothing to do with being homosexual.
See post below from a google discussion group, 1999 by a shari finkelstein. could this be same author of CBS article?
SUBMISSIONS BEING ACCEPTED FOR NEW ZINE-
'IT'S NOT A PHASE'
You are invited to contribute to the first issue of 'It's Not a Phase'.
Our mission is to combat the authoritarian stereotype that coming out as
anything other than "the norm" - such as gay, lesbian, bisexual,
transgendered, transsexual, pagan and so much more - is simply a phase
or hobby to fill time and destroy parents' and other authority figures'
dreams.
This is about understanding and accepting us as who we are, not who they
wish us to be. This is about the paths we've taken in order to accept
ourselves and how we have attained acceptance, attempted it, or lived
without it.
This is about empowerment. Empowering ourselves through sharing, unity,
and support, not overthrowing the "supposed" societal "norms" as many
wish to believe. We range from pre-adolescent to middle age and include
all races and sexes.
This about seizing who we want to be and who we are, even if we
ourselves are not totally comfortable with whom that is. This is about
controlling permission to change who we are as we see fit, as personal
growth, as an adaptation of ourselves and personality as opposed to
being viewed as "a phase".
'It's Not a Phase' aims to be a forum for all expressions of personal
growth, on all levels, from curiosity to full self-knowledge. We not
only wish to share and learn from each other, but to pass on the
courage, strength and lessons as well as we can to those who are only
beginning the struggle.
All forms of creative expression are accepted, and welcomed. Poetry,
prose, stories from fiction, fact or a mixture, essays, photos
drawings....anything you think expresses your emotions regarding your
personal quest for self and societal acceptance. Submissions can be
published credited or anonymous, whichever you choose, and you can even
contribute anonymously, if you wish.
Send contributions by email to: JewlyaR...@hotmail.com,
sfink...@eden.rutgers.edu or send to: Shari Finkelstein,Rutgers, the
State University, 25776 DPO Way, New Brunswick, NJ 08901-8707. Deadline
for submissions is April 15th.
--
As I wrote in an earlier post, perhaps this poor kid's gender problem is biologically based...so what? That just means something went WRONG. Should an alcoholic whose alcoholism is determined to be genetic be allowed to show up drunk at work?
another article by shari finkelstein on intersexed children:
http://venus-unrelenting.com/other.html
Shari Finkelstein
Response paper #1
988:101:01
The True Other
Although many often describe Women as the lesser regarded and advantageous sex, one only has to believe in Anne Fausto-Sterling's belief in "The Five Sexes: Why Female and Male Are Not Enough", to know the true other is not the second class women, but the largely ignored intersexed.
In "Age, Class, and Sex: Women Redefining Difference", Audre Lorde states, "In a society where the good is defined in terms of profit rather than in terms of human need, there must always be some group of people who, through systematized oppression, can be made to feel surplus, to occupy the place of the dehumanized inferior." She continues on, "Within this society, that group is made up of Black and Third World people, working-class people, older people and women."(WCS, 103)
What Lorde, and so many others, ignore though, is what medical investigators have recognized for quite some time. "For biologically speaking, there are many gradations running from female to male; depending on how one calls the shots, one can argue that along the spectrum lie at least five sexes-and perhaps maybe more."(Fausto-Sterling, 54) On the basis of what is known about them, the author suggests that the three intersexes deserve to be known as additional sexes in their own right. The intersexed human's inner life, complete with their special needs and problems, attractions and repulsions have gone unexplored by science. (54) 013 The intersexed outer life has completely omitted from society, where one has to look no further than any restroom or legal document to see that if you are not strictly male or female, you may as well not exist.
Adrienne Rich in "Compulsory Heterosexuality and Lesbian Existence", says "Lesbian existence comprises of both the breaking of taboo, and the rejection of a compulsory way of life."(Reader, 239) There is no denying these facts for lesbians, but it can also be applied to sex. In virtually every society, what is compulsory is fitting into the "natural" classification of male or female. Whereas the "lesbian existence has been lived...without access to any knowledge of a tradition, a continuity, a social underpinning.", and has "historically been deprived of a political existence through "inclusion" as female versions of male sexuality", it has existed with acknowledgment by all, regardless of with support or contempt. In recent decades the homosexual movement has risen, giving themselves character and history with every "outing". The intersexed have a vast lack of public support resources in comparison, and although they are up to 4% births per year, virtually none are publicly accepted.
Simone de Beauroir states in "The Second Sex", "The category of the Other is as primordial as consciousness itself. In most primitive societies... one finds the expression of duality-that of the Self and the Other. This duality was not originally attached to the division of the sexes; it was not dependent on any imperical facts. Otherness is a fundamental category of human thought." "Thus it is that no group ever sets itself up as the One without at once setting up the Other over against itself." (xxiii) Throughout time, the true Other has been so well portrayed that it has been able to become virtually invisible. "Legally...every adult is either man or woman", and although Fausto-Sterling states that the difference is not trivial, it must be, for why else would we be preconditioned to ignore the intersexed?
Society and politics seem to love to control many aspects of our lives, embedding in our impressionable minds that if what they say is what their forefathers said, it must be true, as g-d, if one believes, has meant it to be. The fact remains though that "If the state and the legal system have an interest in maintaining a two-party sex system, they are in defiance of nature."
Although it is clear that in order to correct this, we must act by reversing the ignoring of the intersexed; it would be a long hard struggle. In a world where women are often denied the rights of their male counterparts, and homosexuals are only now gaining exceptance, approval for yet another minority-a minority in the minority-would take much effort.
As Lourde says, "it is the members of oppressed, objectified groups who are expected to stretch out and bridge the gap between the actualities in our lives and the consciousness of our oppressor" "It is the responsibility of the oppressed to teach the oppressors their mistakes."(WCS, 104) Therefore, before a "vision of sexual multiplicity can be realized, the first openly intersexual children and their parents will have to be the brave pioneers who will bear the brunt of society's growing pains."(Fausto-Sterling, 59).
This in my opinion is highly unlikely for the near future. As a young woman who has grown from a highly taunted child, I know the pain childhood can bring. The effort needed simply to educate the nation, much less the world, of the existence of the intersexed would be huge and possibly forever traumatizing on the child. No parent would press that upon his or her child, and¹ even fewer children would choose that route. The fact is, in this day and age, any small home-grown campaign, as well as it means, and as large as it aims, can fail without proper financial and social support, and in this day and age, success for another minority while others are still fighting seems to be a dream for the future. It is a sad reality, yet it is reality. Although many do acknowledge and accept the intersexed as sexual beings in their own right, the majority of existence has and always will considered them the invisible Other.
a shari finkelstein is listed as president of rutgers gay, bisexual, transgender group in college paper:
http://www.dailytargum.com/home/index.cfm?event=displayArticlePrinterFriendly&uStory_id=a21a7a99-6f8c-4d8d-9094-af7702f301bc
So right! I was a tom boy as a kid, enjoyed climbing trees, and hiking with my brothers. I am plenty girlie, thank you very much! LOL
"What kind of folks are mom & dad---if there is a dad. ??????"
The Mom is definately a nut case. Probably wanted a girl, so she treats her son like one.
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