PM shuns US 'slavish love of guns'

ninemsn ^ | Mar 1, 2006 | NA

[F.J. Mitchell]

We don't love guns,Mr. PM Howard. We just realize that in the real world, bad guys will always be armed, and feel the good guys have a right to equal fire power with which to defend themselves and their families.

[Skywalk]

That was a great read, not just for his specific refutation and condemnation of Peters but for the larger truths he brings to light when we discuss the logic and natural conclusions the anti-gun crowd makes.

Maybe Peters will get knifed one day. Oh, the irony!

Tyrants aren't just elected or appointed politicians.

[ottersnot]

Slavish?!!

I'll have you know I was not pressured to love guns sir.

And I love them all equally.

[Fred Nerks]

There are only 20 million people living in Australia. There were 437 fire-arm related deaths in Australia in 1997. That number includes idiots who shoot each other hunting and suicides. We do not have an epedemic of crime. If I want a fire-arm I can buy one. I do not feel threatened by these laws and neither does the average Aussie. There is no public outcry.

Our society is evidently not as divided as is yours. We are not cowards. See report excerpt below:


The Australian Bureau of Statistics counts all injury deaths, whether or not they are crime-related. The most recently available ABS figures show a total of 437 firearm-related deaths (homicide, suicide and unintentional) for 1997. This is the lowest number for 18 years.

The Australian rate of gun death per 100,000 population remains one-fifth that of the United States.

"We have observed a decline in firearm-related death rates (essentially in firearm-related suicides) in most jurisdictions in Australia. We have also seen a declining trend in the percentage of robberies involving the use of firearms in Australia."

-- Mouzos, J. Firearm-related Violence: The Impact of the Nationwide Agreement on Firearms. Trends & Issues in Crime & Criminal Justice No. 116. Australian Institute of Criminology. Canberra, May 1999; 6

Assault and Robbery

Those who claim that Australia suffered a "crime wave" as a result of new gun laws often cite as evidence unrelated figures for common assault or sexual assault (no weapon) and armed robbery (any weapon). In fact less than one in five Australian armed robberies involve a firearm.

"Although armed robberies increased by nearly 20%, the number of armed robberies involving a firearm decreased to a six-year low."

-- Recorded Crime, Australia, 1998. Australian Bureau of Statistics, Jun 1999

[Steel Wolf]

I can't believe anyone could be so ignorant. Australia has been there beside you in every conflict I can think of since World War one.

They sure have. I served with some last summer and I would again in a heartbeat. Great guys, and great soldiers, even if they were harder to understand than the Brits. If you think that I'm knocking on the ability or will of the Australian military, then you're missing the point entirely.

[Plutarch]

"I knew out of that there was an opportunity to grab the moment and think about a fundamental change to gun laws in this country,"

Yup, find the excuse. In The Odyssey , Ulysses needed to disarm the suitors infesting his house, so he and his son Telemachus could kill them. He came up with an excuse as well.

I will nod my head to you, and on seeing me do this you must collect all the armour that is in the house and hide it in the strong store room. Make some excuse when the suitors ask you why you are removing it; say that you have taken it to be out of the way of the smoke, inasmuch as it is no longer what it was when Ulysses went away, but has become soiled and begrimed with soot. Add to this more particularly that you are afraid Jove may set them on to quarrel over their wine, and that they may do each other some harm which may disgrace both banquet and wooing, for the sight of arms sometimes tempts people to use them. But leave a sword and a spear apiece for yourself and me, and a couple oxhide shields so that we can snatch them up at any moment; Jove and Minerva will then soon quiet these people.

[Eric in the Ozarks]

The phrase "Arsenal of Democracy" came from FDR, when the United States really was.

[longtermmemmory]

BOY! did he go down a BIG notch.

What an idiotic thing to say. He could only PRAY Austrailia went UP to the path of the USA instead of a wanabe USA.

[RandallFlagg]

I've heard from Australians on other boards who have said that the NRA's numbers on the gun crimes down there are badly skewed. I know we have FReepers in Australia. Perhaps they could straighten this up for us.

If it's wrong, it's wrong.

BTW, Howard's wrong as well. But it'd be better to have the facts with us to use in battle against the gungrabbers -if the NRA's data is wrong, that is.

[Fred Nerks]

Urban Legends Reference Pages:

http://www.snopes.com/crime/statistics/ausguns.asp

[Modok]

A person's position on guns and what guns represent is a window into that person's inner soul. This is just not a single political position but rather a definition of him.

[Fred Nerks]

(7/27/2001) This chain uses questionable statistics to "prove" that recent gun control legislation in Australia has actually increased crime there. The author then uses this flawed proof as a warning to those in the United States who are pushing for stricter gun control.

SAMPLE CHAIN LETTER TEXT

Subject: ABOUT AUSTRALIA

Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2001 6:05 AM
Subject: Worth repeating

From: Ed Chenel, a police officer in Australia.

Hi Yanks,

I thought you all would like to see the real figures from Down Under.

It has now been 12 months since gun owners in Australia were forced by a new law to surrender 640,381 personal firearms to be destroyed by our own government, a program costing Australia taxpayers more than $500 million dollars.

The first year results are now in: Australia-wide, homicides are up 3.2 percent, Australia-wide, assaults are up 8.6 percent; Australia-wide, armed robberies are up 44 percent (yes, 44 percent!) In the state of Victoria alone, homicides with firearms are now up 300 percent. (Note that while the law-abiding citizens turned them in, the criminals did not and criminals still possess their guns!)

While figures over the previous 25 years showed a steady decrease in armed robbery with firearms, this has changed drastically upward in the past 12 months, since the criminals now are guaranteed that their prey is unarmed.

There has also been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults of the elderly. Australian politicians are at a loss to explain how public safety has decreased, after such monumental effort and expense was expended in "successfully ridding Australian society of guns."

You won't see this data on the American evening news or hear your governor or members of the state Assembly disseminating this information.

The Australian experience proves it. Guns in the hands of honest citizens save lives and property and, yes, gun-control laws affect only the law-abiding citizens.

Take note Americans, before it's to late!

END CHAIN LETTER TEXT






These seem like very convincing statistics. The results are exactly what we expect from laws created by narrow-minded bureaucrats. The bottom line is we want them to be true.

Jenny Mouzos, Research Analyst for the Australian Institute of Criminology, told BreakTheChain.org that the letter is an interesting study in creative interpretation:


Please find below a detailed response to each claim made in the email entitled "About Australia".

Claim One:
* Homicides are up 3.2%
* Assaults are up 8.6%
* Armed robberies are up 44%
Response:
These figures compare 1996 with 1997 figures and were correct at that time.
(Data source: Australian Bureau of Statistics (ABS) Recorded Crime 1997, Table 1.1, p 8).

Claim Two:
Figures over the previous 25 years show a steady decrease in armed robbery with firearms (changed drastically in the past 12 months).
Response:
Actual figures from the ABS do show an increase in armed robbery from 1995 (5258) to 1996 (6256) to 1997 (9054) to 1998 (10850), but the proportion of firearms used to commit armed robbery has continued to decline over this period:
1995 - 27.8%
1996 - 25.3%
1997 - 24.1%
1998 - 17.6%
1999 - 15.2%
2000 - 14.0%

Claim Three:
In the state of Victoria homicides with firearms are up 300%
Response:
Victoria recorded 7 firearm-related homicides in 1996, and 19 firearm-related homicides in 1997. That number has now fallen.
1996 - 7
1997 - 19 (171.4% increase from 1996 to 1997)
1998 - 17 (10.5% decrease from 1997 to 1998).
1999 - 14 (17.6% decrease from 1998 to 1999).

Claim Four:
There has been a dramatic increase in break-ins and assaults of the elderly
Response:
According to the 1998 ABS Crime and Safety Survey "households with persons aged 55 years and over had a lower risk of break-in victimisation compared with other households" (page 27).
According to the ABS Recorded Crime:
1996 - 1474 victims of assault aged 65 and over
1997 - 1662 victims of assault aged 65 and over (12.8% increase from '96 to '97)
1998 - 1663 victims of assault aged 65 and over (0.06% increase from '97 to '98)
1999 - 1793 victims of assault aged 65 and over (7.8% increase from '98 to '99).

Further information on firearm-related homicide and firearm-related injuries in Australia can be downloaded from the AIC website:

http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/tandi/tandi198.html
http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/tandi/tandi187.html
http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/tandi/tandi151.html


My favorite claim in the letter is that gun-related homicides in Victoria are up 300%. An increase from 7 to 14 is only 100% and is hardly compelling. Population increase alone could account for the higher number. Regardless, in the United States - where most major cities have 7-14 homicides in a month - we would kill (pun intended) for crime rates that low.

The author of this chain letter was a crafty wordsmith who manipulated the statistics to make precisely the point he wanted to. The thing about statistics is that they only show rate of incident - they don't show cause and effect. That interpretation is done by the author based on his own biases and beliefs. Another author might easily have used the same stats to show that the law has been a stunning success. Frankly, the stats aren't convincing on their own and the author's claim that they are a result of the law is questionable at best. Break this chain.

http://www.breakthechain.org/exclusives/australiaguns.html

[neverdem]

A person's position on guns and what guns represent is a window into that person's inner soul. This is just not a single political position but rather a definition of him.

IMHO, it is one of the best indicators of general political philosophy. I'd guess 90% reliability or better, and more reliable than someones view on abortion.

[Fred Nerks]

A society's position on guns and what guns represent is a window into that society's inner soul. This is just not a single political position but rather a definition of that society...

Fair enough?

[Modok]

No, I guess we could argue about society having a soul or not, but your changes make the statement vague...

[gakrak]

""And one of the things I don't admire about America is their ... slavish love of guns. They're evil.""

Now that makes me feel better, it sure does make it tough to take away our freedoms if your looking down the barrel of a 44 mag. Amen.

[manglor]

Well of course you shouldn't trust australians with guns. The country was founded by criminals remember? It was a british penal colony. I wouldn't want an entire continent of criminals running around with firearms either.

Maybe howard is onto something.

[proud_yank]

I have a weak stomach where idiocy is concerned.

You and me both brother!

[proud_yank]

Thanks for posting those, but the objection I would have is that many of them are stats over a very short time-span in which natural fluctuations in crime rates are bound to occur.

In Canada, where new gun laws were introduced in 1991 and 1995, the number of gun deaths has reached a 30-year low.

I live in Canada now, and in Edmonton over 40 people were stabbed to death in 2005, stabbing deaths of course won't be counted as a firearm homicide. When the govt passed laws that firearms couldn't be used as self defense, crime rates increased 25% that year (I believe that was 1977) It will be referenced Here "Gun Facts"

Another interesting point that many take for granted is that the US does not have the easiest access to firearms, Switzerland does, yet they do not have very high crime rates. Hence, there are other factors involved in homicide rates that are not taken into account besides gun laws.

Aside from strict gun control laws, has Australia enforced strict jail times for violent offenders? In NYC, they have tough gun control laws but their crime rates dropped significantly when they took a tough stance on jailing criminals. Personally, I think that is the biggest factor when it comes to fighting crime.

[proud_yank]

From your linked article!

Didn't the article also state that there were ~700 suicides? I'll go back and double check, but I have to go to class :-)