Posted on 01/07/2006 3:05:29 PM PST by avile
Is there some historical proof that walling yourself off in a ghetto saves lives?
There are no holy sites in Gaza and precious little Jewish history at all.
And when there are holy sites such as Joseph's Tomb? Does it make a difference?
There is lots of the "promised land" we don't control. I suppose some would want us to invade Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon to claim it. I prefer to believe that promise will be fulfilled when moshiach comes, not before.
What if Moshiach isn't going to come? What if he is here and now? I have always felt that, far more than any Jew waits for the Moshiach, Moshiach waits for the Jews. We have waited thousands of years to no avail. Perhaps action, rather than waiting, is what is needed. Maybe when we rip the blinders from our eyes, we will be able to see the Moshiach. The blinders of assimilation, materialism, and yes, the liberal political correctness that prevents us from identifying Amalek and doing what we're supposed to.
You, who are on the front lines, get to make the choice. I won't call you any names for making the one you feel in your heart to be correct, even though I am sure it cannot possibly work in the long term.
So where does that leave us? Am I supposed to remain silent when Jews are slaughtered? Am I supposed to support a process when all that process results in is murdered Jews?
Do you think the world community would tolerate large scale slaughter of Arabs even if the main target was legitimate? How long before Israel would face sanctions or even foreign intervention? Also the assumption that "most" Arabs are out to kill us is one that you know I don't accept. We've had that discussion.
This is the problem I have with the far right "solutions" to massively kill or transfer the Palestinians. I feel the consequences to Israel will be far greater than anything the Palestinians or even the Arabs as a whole can inflict upon us.
> Is there some historical proof that walling yourself
> off in a ghetto saves lives?
I don't consider Israel a ghetto for one little minute.
> And when there are holy sites such as Joseph's Tomb? Does
> it make a difference?
Of course it does. This is why the fence near Jerusalem stretches to the edge of Bethlehem to take in Rachel's Tomb. This is why I feel the route of the fence must be changed in southern Judea. Just as we have a finger of land stretching to encompass the Ariel bloc we must have one to take in the settlements in the Hebron hills and the important parts of Hebron itself. If the Palestinians don't like that arrangement they can sue for piece.
> What if Moshiach isn't going to come? What if he is here
> and now? I have always felt that, far more than any Jew
> waits for the Moshiach, Moshiach waits for the Jews. We
> have waited thousands of years to no avail. Perhaps
> action, rather than waiting, is what is needed. Maybe
> when we rip the blinders from our eyes, we will be able
> to see the Moshiach.
You and I will disagree because our basic premise is so different. I will respect your beliefs and agree to disagree.
> The blinders of assimilation, materialism, and yes,
> the liberal political correctness that prevents us from
> identifying Amalek and doing what we're supposed to.
If I wanted assimilation or was materialistic I would have stayed in America. I can make much more money there. There is also a difference between "liberal political correctness" and Jewish morals and ethics. To me those who propose mass murder of innocents as you do are abandoning Jewish morals.
Amalek, in a literal sense, no longer exists. We have enemies today, certainly. I'll even agree with the idea that some of our enemies are truly evil. However I do not claim to have a direct pipeline to G-d nor do I believe a prophet has come along to tell us to smite all the Palestinians. Sorry, from my perspective calling them Amalek is just plain wrong.
> You, who are on the front lines, get to make the choice.
Thank you for acknowledging that. I could live safely where my brother is in Georgia, for example. I choose to be here. I believe this is the right place for me, a Jew, to live and to have an authentically Jewish life.
> I won't call you any names for making the one you feel
> in your heart to be correct, even though I am sure it
> cannot possibly work in the long term.
First, thank you for having this debate in a respectful way. To me that puts you head and shoulders ahead of the zealots on here who do call names and dismiss all that dare disagree with them.
My thoughts are this: unilateral separation is not a long term solution. You are correct about that. What the hope most of us support it have is that if we make terrorism ineffective for the Palestinians, if we take away most of their ability to harm us, if they come to realize that they cannot achieve any of their goals through violence then maybe, someday in the future, a pragmatic leader will arise among the Palestinians who can lead their people to piece. We need a Sadat or a King Hussein type individual who is Palestinian. That person simply does not exist today. So in the meanwhile we contain the Palestinians for as long as is necessary.
If ultimately we cannot contain them and they continue to acquire more dangerous weapons we may have to resort to your solution. I pray it never has to come to that.
> So where does that leave us? Am I supposed to remain
> silent when Jews are slaughtered?
Of course not. I certainly would not.
> Am I supposed to support a process when all that process
> results in is murdered Jews?
I don't believe that to be the case. Prime Minister Sharon's policies (fence, IDF action) have brought the number of successful Palestinian attacks way down. We lost a lot less people last year. Losing even one Jewish life is too many, of course, but everything we do to reduce the number is good. Finishing the fence will do more. I also believe that once a year has passed the number of people we will have lost in and around Gaza will also prove to be way down. Again, even one death is too many and we need to keep working to save Jewish lives in any way possible.
To me the most likely way to achieve that goal: saving Jewish lives, is to continue on the path Prime Minister Sharon has started down. We need Kadima and Ehud Olmert to finish the job.
(FWIW, acting PM Olmert would not have been my first choice. That would have been Defense Minister Mofaz, but he has thrown his support behind acting PM Olmert as have all the other Kadima leaders save Shimon Peres and even he is expected to follow suit.)
A world community that has already tolerated the large scale slaughter of Jews and is getting tired of hearing about the Holocaust? A world that tolerates bombing after bombing and never says Israel is justified in doing anything in its own defense INCLUDING building that wall?
Recall what happened when a group of Arabs took a planeload of Israelis to Uganda. When Israel stands up for itself, the world backs off. Maybe if Israel told the world what it really is.....
How long before Israel would face sanctions or even foreign intervention?
It appears the only time Israel doesn't face sanctions or UN intervention is when they are giving up land, money, power, etc., to the Arabs.
Hitler, yemach sh'mo, didn't come to power and implement his Final Solution all at once. Evil grows gradually...but it grows faster when good people don't oppose it.
It appears you are certain in your convictions. Yet, even you think that it will only forstall the inevitable for a generation at best. I guess there's nothing else I can say except that I wish you well.
Have you been to Tel Aviv lately and seen what the next generation of Israeli Jews is selling ?
Throughout history Israel was only overcome by external forces after internal decay and/or disintegration.
PRE-cisely!!!!
So... I continue to support unilateral separation and I plan to vote for Kadima.
I'll be praying for Israel.
I continue to be criticized and called a leftist on Free Republic even though I am center-right in Israel
All I can say is a pox on them. I'm glad you are sticking to your guns on this.
> Have you been to Tel Aviv lately
Yes, each time I go into the office. Even in Tel Aviv what you descibe is a small minority. Israel is much larger than Tel Aviv.
> All I can say is a pox on them.
Even this I can't agree with. I don't wish people ill just because they disagree with me on politics. The vast majority here support Israel. I just think some don't understand the likely consequences of the policies they support. Most also don't have to live with those consequences if they are wrong.
Huge note to self: Free Republic will never cure insomnia. Quite the contrary.
You have my sympathy.
Even in Tel Aviv what you descibe is a small minority. Israel is much larger than Tel Aviv.
America is much larger than Los Angeles, New York, or San Francisco yet they persist in defining down the culture.
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