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Whither Israel I received this email from Ziv, a Princeton grad, who now lives in Israel,
israpundit ^ | Ted Belman

Posted on 01/07/2006 3:05:29 PM PST by avile

Whither Israel I received this email from Ziv, a Princeton grad, who now lives in Israel, --------------------------------------------------- On Friday morning, the shoppers at the corner grocery in Jerusalem were vigorously debating politics. This is par for the course in Israel, between selecting cucumbers and bananas. The severe stroke suffered by Prime Minister Ariel Sharon was, not surprisingly, the only topic of discussion. One shopper predicted that Sharon’s deputy and now acting Prime Minister Ehud Olmert would take the reigns of the newly created Kadima party and lead it to victory in the elections just as surely as Sharon would have. Another man vociferously disagreed, arguing that the politicians in Kadima would now scatter, each returning to his or her old political base. “Everything will go back to what it was. In the elections, Likud will again confront the Alignment,” he proclaimed, subconsciously slipping back into calling the Israeli Labor Party by the name it had twenty-five years ago.

There is much confusion and uncertainty in Israeli politics and amongst the general public. After several years of ossified slumber, the political system suffered a series of jolts in the autumn and early winter – Amir Peretz shocked the nation by taking the leadership of Labor, then Sharon shook everything up by creating an instant party that drew leading politicians away from the Likud and Labor and grabbed a huge lead in the polls. And then the likelihood that Sharon will be leaving the political stage forever threw everything back into turmoil.

This is an incredible moment of political fluidity.

A friend of mine here has for a long time filled a job application sheet for a particular position, only to find himself unable to affix a postage stamp to the envelope, because the job would require him to maintain close contact with an organization whose opinions were far to the right. He recently finally managed to bring himself to ship off the application. “Nobody knows what right or left mean any more,” he told me in explanation.

Over 150 years ago, it used to be said about Prussia that although most countries have armies, in Prussia the army has a country. Over the past thirty or more years in Israel, it seemed as if, in contrast to most countries, which have policy issues with which they must deal, in Israel a policy issue had a country. From the first few days after the shock of Israel’s surprisingly swift victory in the Six Day War settled in, there was only one question that counted in Israeli politics: ‘what to with the territories’. Everything was measured in relation to that question.

If you believed the entire land was promised to the Jewish people and should be filled with Jewish settlements endlessly until the demographic balance was completely altered forever, you were on the right end of the political spectrum. If you believed that Israel should negotiate an accord that would immediately dismantle every last settlement and return the borders to what they had been on June 5, 1967, you were on the otherend of the spectrum. Every other permutation placed you somewhere along a rough line from one pole to the other. Whatever opinions you might have had about, the economy, or social policy, or any other matter, was largely irrelevant.

Doubtless there are individuals in the settlement movement, in Yossi Beilin’s Meretz party, who still insist that the old categories of left and right are as important as ever. But most Israelis, apparently, feel that these distinctions are slipping away. They know we won’t go back to the situation of the seventies, when Israelis flocked every weekend to the Arab markets of Bethlehem and Ramallah, Palestinian labourers worked from morning to night in every Israeli city and hamlet, and even Shimon Peres was a champion of the settlers. Nor will the euphoria of the immediate post-Oslo agreement, when many believed a new Middle East might dawn, return any time soon. The suicide bombers made sure of that.

At the same time, the public approval Sharon maintained after the trauma of last summer’s disengagement from the Gaza Strip indicated that the old dreams of the right are very far from being popular in middle Israel.

The disengagement and the security fence snaking its way through Judea and Samaria have taken on symbolic importance beyond their immediate practical import. About 15 years ago, Yossi Alpher, a strategic analyst, noted that nearly 90% of Israeli settlers lived on about 10% of Judea and Samaria, and rather near to the old Green Line. Whether by design or a step-by-step improvisation, the policy that Sharon has constructed over the past three years has remarkably resembled a practical, 90-10 solution a la the Alpher map. And a large number of Israelis said they would vote for Sharon’s party because they liked it. It is a policy that says, absent a Palestinian partner with whom we can negotiate, we will draw a line – or in this case a security fence – in the sand. The fence will sometimes hug the old border, and sometimes extend out to include 90% of the settlers. We will disengage – meaning remove settlements – from some areas.

There won’t be a comprehensive peace agreement, only conflict containment for a generation. We don’t want to determine the lives of millions of Palestinian Arabs. They won’t work or even visit on our side of the fence. We won’t go there. They can do what they want over there, create a Middle East Switzerland or, as is actually happening now in the Gaza Strip, sink into lawless anarchy. We don’t care. The answer to that old question ‘what will we do with the territories’ is – we’ll ignore them.

The only problem with this is that lots of people on the other side of the fence don’t want to be ignored. Rockets are still being fired from Gaza to Sderot and very near Ashkelon, in Israel. Hamas is mounting a serious campaign for taking over the Palestinian Authority. Huge weapons caches are being smuggled daily along the Egyptian-Palestinian border.

The realignment of political parties and daily political dramas may soon be a luxury that cannot continue forever. Maybe Olmert will be able to hold Kadima together and continue Sharon's plans. But a lot of Israelis are likely to miss the old Ariel Sharon.

Posted by Ted Belman at January 7, 2006 12:11 PM


TOPICS: Israel
KEYWORDS: israel; sharon
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To: anotherview
There is nothing more important in Judaism than saving lives.

Is there some historical proof that walling yourself off in a ghetto saves lives?

There are no holy sites in Gaza and precious little Jewish history at all.

And when there are holy sites such as Joseph's Tomb? Does it make a difference?

There is lots of the "promised land" we don't control. I suppose some would want us to invade Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon to claim it. I prefer to believe that promise will be fulfilled when moshiach comes, not before.

What if Moshiach isn't going to come? What if he is here and now? I have always felt that, far more than any Jew waits for the Moshiach, Moshiach waits for the Jews. We have waited thousands of years to no avail. Perhaps action, rather than waiting, is what is needed. Maybe when we rip the blinders from our eyes, we will be able to see the Moshiach. The blinders of assimilation, materialism, and yes, the liberal political correctness that prevents us from identifying Amalek and doing what we're supposed to.

You, who are on the front lines, get to make the choice. I won't call you any names for making the one you feel in your heart to be correct, even though I am sure it cannot possibly work in the long term.

So where does that leave us? Am I supposed to remain silent when Jews are slaughtered? Am I supposed to support a process when all that process results in is murdered Jews?

21 posted on 01/08/2006 4:01:30 PM PST by h.a. cherev
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To: h.a. cherev

Do you think the world community would tolerate large scale slaughter of Arabs even if the main target was legitimate? How long before Israel would face sanctions or even foreign intervention? Also the assumption that "most" Arabs are out to kill us is one that you know I don't accept. We've had that discussion.

This is the problem I have with the far right "solutions" to massively kill or transfer the Palestinians. I feel the consequences to Israel will be far greater than anything the Palestinians or even the Arabs as a whole can inflict upon us.


22 posted on 01/08/2006 4:16:23 PM PST by anotherview ("Ignorance is the choice not to know" -Klaus Schulze)
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To: h.a. cherev

> Is there some historical proof that walling yourself
> off in a ghetto saves lives?

I don't consider Israel a ghetto for one little minute.

> And when there are holy sites such as Joseph's Tomb? Does
> it make a difference?

Of course it does. This is why the fence near Jerusalem stretches to the edge of Bethlehem to take in Rachel's Tomb. This is why I feel the route of the fence must be changed in southern Judea. Just as we have a finger of land stretching to encompass the Ariel bloc we must have one to take in the settlements in the Hebron hills and the important parts of Hebron itself. If the Palestinians don't like that arrangement they can sue for piece.

> What if Moshiach isn't going to come? What if he is here
> and now? I have always felt that, far more than any Jew
> waits for the Moshiach, Moshiach waits for the Jews. We
> have waited thousands of years to no avail. Perhaps
> action, rather than waiting, is what is needed. Maybe
> when we rip the blinders from our eyes, we will be able
> to see the Moshiach.

You and I will disagree because our basic premise is so different. I will respect your beliefs and agree to disagree.

> The blinders of assimilation, materialism, and yes,
> the liberal political correctness that prevents us from
> identifying Amalek and doing what we're supposed to.

If I wanted assimilation or was materialistic I would have stayed in America. I can make much more money there. There is also a difference between "liberal political correctness" and Jewish morals and ethics. To me those who propose mass murder of innocents as you do are abandoning Jewish morals.

Amalek, in a literal sense, no longer exists. We have enemies today, certainly. I'll even agree with the idea that some of our enemies are truly evil. However I do not claim to have a direct pipeline to G-d nor do I believe a prophet has come along to tell us to smite all the Palestinians. Sorry, from my perspective calling them Amalek is just plain wrong.

> You, who are on the front lines, get to make the choice.

Thank you for acknowledging that. I could live safely where my brother is in Georgia, for example. I choose to be here. I believe this is the right place for me, a Jew, to live and to have an authentically Jewish life.

> I won't call you any names for making the one you feel
> in your heart to be correct, even though I am sure it
> cannot possibly work in the long term.

First, thank you for having this debate in a respectful way. To me that puts you head and shoulders ahead of the zealots on here who do call names and dismiss all that dare disagree with them.

My thoughts are this: unilateral separation is not a long term solution. You are correct about that. What the hope most of us support it have is that if we make terrorism ineffective for the Palestinians, if we take away most of their ability to harm us, if they come to realize that they cannot achieve any of their goals through violence then maybe, someday in the future, a pragmatic leader will arise among the Palestinians who can lead their people to piece. We need a Sadat or a King Hussein type individual who is Palestinian. That person simply does not exist today. So in the meanwhile we contain the Palestinians for as long as is necessary.

If ultimately we cannot contain them and they continue to acquire more dangerous weapons we may have to resort to your solution. I pray it never has to come to that.

> So where does that leave us? Am I supposed to remain
> silent when Jews are slaughtered?

Of course not. I certainly would not.

> Am I supposed to support a process when all that process
> results in is murdered Jews?

I don't believe that to be the case. Prime Minister Sharon's policies (fence, IDF action) have brought the number of successful Palestinian attacks way down. We lost a lot less people last year. Losing even one Jewish life is too many, of course, but everything we do to reduce the number is good. Finishing the fence will do more. I also believe that once a year has passed the number of people we will have lost in and around Gaza will also prove to be way down. Again, even one death is too many and we need to keep working to save Jewish lives in any way possible.

To me the most likely way to achieve that goal: saving Jewish lives, is to continue on the path Prime Minister Sharon has started down. We need Kadima and Ehud Olmert to finish the job.

(FWIW, acting PM Olmert would not have been my first choice. That would have been Defense Minister Mofaz, but he has thrown his support behind acting PM Olmert as have all the other Kadima leaders save Shimon Peres and even he is expected to follow suit.)


23 posted on 01/08/2006 4:46:10 PM PST by anotherview ("Ignorance is the choice not to know" -Klaus Schulze)
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To: anotherview
Do you think the world community would tolerate large scale slaughter of Arabs even if the main target was legitimate?

A world community that has already tolerated the large scale slaughter of Jews and is getting tired of hearing about the Holocaust? A world that tolerates bombing after bombing and never says Israel is justified in doing anything in its own defense INCLUDING building that wall?

Recall what happened when a group of Arabs took a planeload of Israelis to Uganda. When Israel stands up for itself, the world backs off. Maybe if Israel told the world what it really is.....

How long before Israel would face sanctions or even foreign intervention?

It appears the only time Israel doesn't face sanctions or UN intervention is when they are giving up land, money, power, etc., to the Arabs.

Hitler, yemach sh'mo, didn't come to power and implement his Final Solution all at once. Evil grows gradually...but it grows faster when good people don't oppose it.

It appears you are certain in your convictions. Yet, even you think that it will only forstall the inevitable for a generation at best. I guess there's nothing else I can say except that I wish you well.

24 posted on 01/08/2006 4:53:16 PM PST by h.a. cherev
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To: anotherview
The small minority of Jews you describe ...

Have you been to Tel Aviv lately and seen what the next generation of Israeli Jews is selling ?

Throughout history Israel was only overcome by external forces after internal decay and/or disintegration.

25 posted on 01/08/2006 5:02:28 PM PST by af_vet_1981
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To: AmericaUnited; h.a. cherev
And I agree with both of you. If I were king, I'd tell the next PM that they don't get one more red cent or one more bullet until they have "removed" every Philistine and reconquered the Siani.
26 posted on 01/08/2006 5:39:33 PM PST by Lancer_N3502A
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To: anotherview
There is nothing more important in Judaism than saving lives

PRE-cisely!!!!

So... I continue to support unilateral separation and I plan to vote for Kadima.

I'll be praying for Israel.

I continue to be criticized and called a leftist on Free Republic even though I am center-right in Israel

All I can say is a pox on them. I'm glad you are sticking to your guns on this.

27 posted on 01/09/2006 7:10:20 AM PST by WaterDragon
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To: af_vet_1981

> Have you been to Tel Aviv lately

Yes, each time I go into the office. Even in Tel Aviv what you descibe is a small minority. Israel is much larger than Tel Aviv.


28 posted on 01/09/2006 6:13:35 PM PST by anotherview ("Ignorance is the choice not to know" -Klaus Schulze)
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To: WaterDragon

> All I can say is a pox on them.

Even this I can't agree with. I don't wish people ill just because they disagree with me on politics. The vast majority here support Israel. I just think some don't understand the likely consequences of the policies they support. Most also don't have to live with those consequences if they are wrong.

Huge note to self: Free Republic will never cure insomnia. Quite the contrary.


29 posted on 01/09/2006 6:16:34 PM PST by anotherview ("Ignorance is the choice not to know" -Klaus Schulze)
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To: anotherview
Yes, each time I go into the office.

You have my sympathy.

Even in Tel Aviv what you descibe is a small minority. Israel is much larger than Tel Aviv.

America is much larger than Los Angeles, New York, or San Francisco yet they persist in defining down the culture.

Tel Aviv is known throughout the world as "The White City" due to the many Bauhaus-style structures that adorn its streets, but the city may soon be called "The Pink City," as tourism industry heads are planning on transforming the city into the gay capital of the world, Israel’s leading newspaper Yedioth Ahronoth reported. “Tel Aviv and gay people are a perfect fit,” an Israel Hotel Association (IHA) official said. The idea was born when IHA Director-General Eli Ziv visited London recently to participate the 2005 World Travel Market exhibition. During the exhibition Ziv met with representatives of the homo-lesbian travel industry, and discovered an audience that would travel just about anywhere for a good party, even to the Middle East. “The gay community has amazing consumer power, and Tel Aviv has a lot to offer to this community,” Ziv explained. “We have the beach, sun, culture and nightclubs. To our knowledge, gays are capable of hopping on a plane and traveling to the other side of the world just to participate in parties and events that are related to the gay community.” The IAH in Tel Aviv, along with a local gay rights group, turned to European travel agents who focus on the gay community and requested they prepare vacation packages to Tel Aviv. “We are drafting plans to encourage gay tourism from Germany, England and Holland,” Ziv added.

30 posted on 01/10/2006 7:01:31 PM PST by af_vet_1981
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